From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 12:15:38 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 4436 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 12:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 12:15:37 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 4414 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 12:15:34 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.36] (HELO ie-ap.org) (207.245.69.36) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:15:34 -0500 Received: from PA62DXPWKS030 (tmpnat1.honeywell.com [199.64.0.252]) by ie-ap.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id jA1CBMoL009358 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:11:23 -0500 Message-ID: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> From: "Eric Hidle" To: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 06:59:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Subject: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0384300194==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0384300194== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01C5DEB1.CC65F9E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C5DEB1.CC65F9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just moved up here to Lansdale... are there any folks up this way = and/or is there already an established LUG? Anyone interested in = starting one up if there isn't?=20 E ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C5DEB1.CC65F9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I just moved up here to Lansdale... are = there any=20 folks up this way and/or is there already an established LUG? Anyone = interested=20 in starting one up if there isn't?

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C5DEB1.CC65F9E0-- --===============0384300194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============0384300194==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:05:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 10012 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:05:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:05:07 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 9874 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:05:01 -0000 Received: from [216.158.56.162] (HELO mail.goppelt.net) (216.158.56.162) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:05:01 -0500 Received: from merc.goppelt.net (toby.goppelt.net [192.168.1.90]) by mail.goppelt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E8531C026; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by merc.goppelt.net (Postfix, from userid 500) id 393C8184222; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:04:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:04:39 -0500 From: Edmund Goppelt To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server Message-ID: <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <43664947.1@patshead.com> <70A23F4E-7060-4922-AF72-2C5AD28E70ED@mcgillsociety.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70A23F4E-7060-4922-AF72-2C5AD28E70ED@mcgillsociety.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Cc: magill@mcgillsociety.org X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 11:52:56PM -0500, William H. Magill wrote: > Backup of individual files is solely for their recovery in case of > deletion. > > Backup of a "System" requires that you be capable of restoring the > SYSTEM to working order as of when the last backup was taken. A > System is composed of many files. I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that it's impossible to do a bare metal restore using individual files? If you are, that's not been my experience (see below). And if you're not dealing with files, what units of storage are you dealing with? Partitions? As I recall you used to work for Penn which has lots of resources--both money and people. I'm in a different situation: it's just me and I have to watch every penny. I realize you may not be used to working under such constraints, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. How do you think I should go about backing up my 8 or so systems? > The primary issue is -- how long is it going to take you to return > things to the way they were "before" you lost the system? A 1-TB > data store takes A LONG TIME to restore! This has not been my experience. It took me about 4 hours to do a bare metal restore of my main web/database server recently. The 1 TB refers to the storage capacity avaialable for backups. Most of my systems use less than 80GB. > "What happens when the architect gets hit by a bus?" At this point, backups become somebody else's problem. -- Ed Goppelt http://www.hallwatch.org ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:05:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 10245 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:05:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:05:41 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 10197 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:05:36 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:05:36 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1D5BhI000578; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:05:11 -0500 Message-ID: <43676801.1000506@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:05:05 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <43663186.3020901@patshead.com> <20051031230425.GG19989@merc.goppelt.net> In-Reply-To: <20051031230425.GG19989@merc.goppelt.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 Cc: webmaster@hallwatch.org X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0057117063==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============0057117063== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8F8FE9AECE135D5F3DE1D3BD" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8F8FE9AECE135D5F3DE1D3BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edmund Goppelt wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 10:00:22AM -0500, Pat Regan wrote: >> I am also a big fan of 3ware PATA and SATA RAID controllers. They are a >> bit pricey, but less hassle (and in most cases, faster) than software >> RAID. > > Since the 3ware RAID cards cost between $300-$400, I'm inclined to go > the software route. Why less hassle? Don't you have to fiddle with > custom kernel drivers? I am probably somewhat exaggerating how much hassle software RAID is these days. I notice the new Debian installer lets you set up MD and LVM during installation. I had problems testing it in a VM. MD seemed to work fine, but when I tried to configure LVM... It would let me create a volume group with no errors, but it wouldn't let me create any logical volumes because the VG didn't seem to exist. I think the bigger advantage of the 3ware hardware is speed. If you do mirroring in software (RAID 1 and RAID 10) you push twice as much data over the PCI bus and you use double the CPU time writing the data (especially in the case of IDE). The 3ware driver works like a SCSI driver. There are no custom kernel drivers to worry about. The driver has been in mainline for many years, and I as far as I know any remotely modern distro has the driver on the boot cd. I have a very old card in my desktop (I think it is an original 7800, 8 port full lenght 64-bit PCI card). They have almost non-existent cache, and provide horrible RAID 5 performance. It is my understanding that the current generation of cards are light years ahead of the old ones for RAID 5. For RAID 0, 1, or 10 it is VERY hard to beat a 3ware card. :) Pat --------------enig8F8FE9AECE135D5F3DE1D3BD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ2gG5xI+FcVJCrERAkF7AJ4+paieDI8jfmO7mTWWa39icykWgQCfWG9s 7mNEf/U8dzttb+ReIujZaJY= =LoBs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8F8FE9AECE135D5F3DE1D3BD-- --===============0057117063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============0057117063==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:21:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 13076 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:21:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:21:09 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 13059 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:21:06 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:21:06 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1DKh7Z028386 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:20:44 -0500 Message-ID: <43676BAB.40106@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:20:43 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] Re: RAID Backup Server References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <20051101000929.GH19989@merc.goppelt.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1226269513==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1226269513== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Diehl wrote: > There is also rdiff-backup. Uses rsync technology, can talk to a remote > site over ssh and keeps diffs going as far back as you have the disk space > to store (if that is what you want). ;) > rdiff-backup is a wonderful piece of software, especially if you want to keep lots of small incremental backups around. I like to use rdiff-backup to backup all my data to a single location. I keep just about as many increments as will fit, and I use this location as a staging area for generating real backups. The only disadvantage is the CPU hit from generating the differentials (for anyone who doesn't know, rdiff-backup only stores the pieces of a file that changed instead of entire copies of changed files). > The only thing I would like to see is the ability to encrypt the stored > data on the fly but you cannot have everything. > There is another related project called Duplicity, and I only played with it a little bit. Everything is stored encrypted using gpg. I didn't much care for the way it handled the encryption, though... Apparently the default is to use symmetric encryption. I wanted to use asymmetric encryption... I figured that way the backup process would only need my public key, then I would be able to decrypt it with my private key. Unfortunately, Duplicity needs access the encrypted archive. That means the backup process needs to be able to have access to the private key... At that point I stopped investigating Duplicity :). Pat --------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ2ur5xI+FcVJCrERAm6sAKCxBXWMFL9nxDahr6/tqD/49lkX2ACeMW6S CyFRki3VL2hU/UkfHLfVa34= =V7Bw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3-- --===============1226269513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============1226269513==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:24:21 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 13683 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:24:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:24:21 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 13673 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:24:19 -0000 Received: from [209.73.179.141] (HELO smtp103.vzn.mail.dcn.yahoo.com) (209.73.179.141) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:24:19 -0500 Received: (qmail 18730 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:23:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?151.197.126.171?) (art.alexion@verizon.net@151.197.126.171 with plain) by smtp103.vzn.mail.dcn.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:23:57 -0000 Message-ID: <43676CA4.2020500@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:24:52 -0500 From: Art Alexion User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051011) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? References: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> In-Reply-To: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1869016548==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1869016548== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig46AF29F2467BD9E6C6F8902D" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig46AF29F2467BD9E6C6F8902D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Hidle wrote: > I just moved up here to Lansdale... are there any folks up this way > and/or is there already an established LUG? Anyone interested in > starting one up if there isn't? > E There has been talk of starting a Bux-Mont LUG to meet in Willow Grove or alternate between Willow Grove and Montgomeryville. The only thing keeping it from moving forward seems to be that no one wants to be in charge. -- _______________________________________ Art Alexion Arthur S. Alexion LLC PGP fingerprint: 52A4 B10C AA73 096F A661 92D2 3B65 8EAC ACC5 BA7A The attachment -- signature.asc -- is my electronic signature; no need for alarm. Info @ http://mysite.verizon.net/art.alexion/encryption/signature.asc.what.html Key for signed PDFs available at http://mysite.verizon.net/art.alexion/encryption/ArthurSAlexion.p7c The validation string is TTJY-ZILJ-BJJG. ________________________________________ --------------enig46AF29F2467BD9E6C6F8902D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQ2dspELG/oYII0YuAQL6rAP/fjOXsRLmp4vBiwMOCyNc7TJYhsbV7Mvz 2/pkFIY7n8OLfnM7ZsBHwPc0p/Ld9LPsLHgL6PsZB2UHlisYZ+PReKolh1kGKZ6L hqU2I6CiKU7FzFRGmNOFwAaPUsGmlZ8DjPgGsyNes8g5UR3gjzFwdWW1tqHT6s0z GVEDJnyg41I= =1ldo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig46AF29F2467BD9E6C6F8902D-- --===============1869016548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============1869016548==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:51:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 16534 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:51:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:51:24 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 16522 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:51:22 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:51:22 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1Dp0qt003358 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:51:00 -0500 Message-ID: <436772BD.8090600@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:50:53 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <43664947.1@patshead.com> <70A23F4E-7060-4922-AF72-2C5AD28E70ED@mcgillsociety.org> <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> In-Reply-To: <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1479033224==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1479033224== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8EDE8FCBC0628847F819BBBC" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8EDE8FCBC0628847F819BBBC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edmund Goppelt wrote: > As I recall you used to work for Penn which has lots of > resources--both money and people. I'm in a different situation: it's > just me and I have to watch every penny. > You'll have to forgive me, as well. My background involves data storage and backup for relatively large companies with deep pockets, as well. However, everything I learned from working with the high end stuff translates quite well even to what I do at home. The value of the data is different, however. That changes the frequency of my backups to external media :). > I realize you may not be used to working under such constraints, but > I'd love to hear your thoughts. How do you think I should go about > backing up my 8 or so systems? > I'll reply to this part below :). >> The primary issue is -- how long is it going to take you to return >> things to the way they were "before" you lost the system? A 1-TB >> data store takes A LONG TIME to restore! > > This has not been my experience. It took me about 4 hours to do a > bare metal restore of my main web/database server recently. > I think he is referring to how long it takes to restore 1 TB. Extrapolating from what you've mentioned so far... You have 8 machines, 80 GB each. And I will assume your web/database server was equal to the other 7. Restoring all 8 machines (.64 TB) might take a full 24 hours. It might take more, it might take less. It depends whether the bottleneck at that point becomes you or the network :). I don't think the odds are high that all your machines will suffer a failure at the same time unless there is a natural disaster. I will bet that in your case, the last thing you will be worrying about is those 8 machines :). > The 1 TB refers to the storage capacity avaialable for backups. Most > of my systems use less than 80GB. > OK. I will tell you what I would do with the minimum possible budget. I would start by deciding how often you really need to back up all 80 GB. All data is not created equal. The easiest way to have a manageable backup size is to archive old data. That doesn't mean you have to move it somewhere you don't have access to it. Just make an "Archive" directory, move all your old stuff into it, back it up to tape/dvd/cd once or twice and then send it off site. This way you can easily ignore that data on daily/weekly/monthly backups. It saves both space, and usually more importantly time. My home desktop and laptop backups fit on 3 DVDs because of the data I can ignore. Once you do that, you will know how much data you have to backup. At this point I would build a backup server. Since speed is not likely an issue, I would likely buy enough drive for RAID 5 plus a hot spare (and probably a cold spare). Remember, the bigger the drives the longer it takes to rebuild after a failed drive. Since a hot spare will be there right at the moment of failure, rebuilding begins immediately. If you have a cold spare you can swap it in ASAP, then you don't have to wait for an RMA. As far as on line backup software, I am a huge fan of rdiff-backup. On my personal machines here at home I run 2 backups each day, and I keep 1-2 months of these incremental backups available. On average, 2 months takes up a total of about twice as much space as just a full backup. Your mileage may vary quite a bit, though. I setup a similar strategy for a friend of mine over a year ago. She currently has every backup right up to the first one available, and she isn't even using double the space yet. Out of your 8 machines, I would guess that some generate more new data each day than others. Once the data is on the backup server, I would highly recommend getting that data onto some removable media. On a budget, I would try to use DVDs. If you really have 640 GB of data that you actually need to backup every cycle, you are outside the range of a "cheap" backup solution. I don't know what kind of data you have, but assuming 2:1 compression (I am assuming this isn't video or images :p)... 320 gig would require almost 80 DVDs, which doesn't sound feasible to me. ebay seems to have 200/400 LTO drives selling for 500-700 dollars. At 2:1 compression your backup would fit on 2 of those tapes. If you really end up with 300+ compressed gig to back up, this would be the route to go. If you can pare the backup down to an average of under 10 GB per machine, DVDs are probably the way to go. Burners are 60 bucks, so you can buy a few of those. Media is as low as 15 cents per disc (but don't buy the cheapest :p). The biggest advantage the DVD backup gives you is restores. If you had to restore all 8 machine, you could put the backups right into the drives. I think the discussion of what kind of schedule you should use for off line backups would be better left to another message, as this one is getting quite long :). Pat --------------enig8EDE8FCBC0628847F819BBBC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ3LD5xI+FcVJCrERAh3PAJ9Hvy3odTwTbwpKI2FPQoBEniYZXACgxI6P qtl/yxtqo0DQ3Wt1kSs2Lkc= =fmaV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8EDE8FCBC0628847F819BBBC-- --===============1479033224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============1479033224==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 13:55:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 17316 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 13:55:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 13:55:55 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 17306 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 13:55:54 -0000 Received: from [66.92.109.218] (HELO lrcressy.com) (66.92.109.218) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:55:54 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.1] (helo=[192.168.1.1]) by lrcressy.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EWwbA-0002HY-Mx for plug@lists.phillylinux.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:54:48 -0500 Message-ID: <4367737C.8030506@lrcressy.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:54:04 -0500 From: LeRoy Cressy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050927 Debian/1.7.8-1sarge3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, en-ca, en-gb, en-au MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] OT - winxp file evaporation References: <000801c5da76$37a54020$422cfea9@melissa> In-Reply-To: <000801c5da76$37a54020$422cfea9@melissa> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Michael C Finn wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Crompton" > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 03:34 PM > > > >>When creating nested, long filename directories there is a potential for >>unexpected files loss. I had a tree about 7-10 deep with names that were >>rather long at most levels. When attempting to manipulate the files in a >>directory window at the bottom of the tree (left click the filename to >>mark and right click to display the actions) the file immediately >>disappeared from view. No warning no nothing. At first I thought I had a >>virus or some other system problem but that is not the case. This is a >>real windows bug. I was able to recreate it and it seems that in general >>windows treatment of file paths over the 256 character limit is handled >>very poorly. Just beware. I lost an important file last night. In >>disbelief I spent a great deal of time trying to fine it to no avail. When >>this problem happens it just evaporates. I assume it is still really >>somewhere until overwritten but it does not appear in any directory or any >>search. >> >>This was on WinXP media center 2005 edition. > > > It's worse than a Windows bug; it's a Windows design feature! > > I have a copy of the Windows 95 Resource Kit book. Beginning with long file > name support in Win 95, maximum filename component length is 255 characters > and maximum path length is 260 characters. In the administrative > considerations subchapter, it is suggested that file names be limited to 50 to > 75 characters and to keep total path length in mind when using nested file > folders so there will be room for copying and moving files. > > As far as I know, all subsequent versions right up to XP follow that same > rule. > I think that you can find your file if you mount the filesystem as a msdos file system mount -t msdos /dev/fatfs-dev /mountpoint This will take away all of the long filenames from view, and every file will be 8.3 This might work, though I never tried it. - -- Rev. LeRoy D. Cressy mailto:leroy@lrcressy.com /\_/\ http://lrcressy.com ( o.o ) Phone: 215-535-4037 > ^ < FAX: 215-535-4285 gpg fingerprint: 62DE 6CAB CEE1 B1B3 359A 81D8 3FEF E6DA 8501 AFEA For info on enigmail: http://lrcressy.com/linux/mozilla.pdf For info on gpg: http://www.gnupg.org/ Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBQ2dzenlsxrSGsIsqAQqjcA//UlRz19g7g459Iln3sSJb8MKQufMsXufb hmR1WB0zNyXf1+pKztQnGCw4mAR3C59fGLUrWjM7hbBd48KQtWxf+gPOGOhDXILb EjA6+wSSjN0xoe2QGRUquzy6ZHH9nmyDJEJXXcS3b39H+RvCuvP9IeKiPEdjkvfN Z/hlMC2H3gyi+Cyw4IclHmo69k7kh+iRZq9RcOffIU7lTmhZx+baQ/dDCrMRR4Fr kFfVisUoyNUUiuiY2pHMK1FXT5Gla6neLML8nS6hKDWW2vZxdcXt9klTQtBjtNcv 43L3RK6GEXPaSrk+2Nq0tbDHCEtpMUcMN2s8ARYwE3roKPFZ1pWGmf4RMfsdqNAh Ms4IiZdL2f/kEdyl+uIqx3WeeYSPiho8goWSgkMiijQPkxPmbngEc8GNtuEuAt8R j6Eh0qmGCthlvT0o/whAW4e41OC1oOAsWScHgZ1PLRKPg4GAYaQ+VHxmFlrJVrtv oujUDFXH76ukHgvLcDVJgTT9qamjiSeDtFQFqiFcUggWhuVPpwivomk2T3nFhqXq zoZb/bJLQGLANkBCCUQgBTRzkI+EvK3A6h1YvOptGVml5dmVLGBwdWqtNmGp0k/f KKjunU/HFXKlIM/b3KUtCRExnRqX5HliRgxIcJLObaDltYkfOyO3eVpLaE6wQcnX Qp/UDuXie8c= =JBJv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:09:59 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 24894 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:09:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:09:58 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 24884 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:09:56 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:09:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1F9Ur00590 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:09:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:09:30 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] OT - winxp file evaporation In-Reply-To: <4367737C.8030506@lrcressy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, LeRoy Cressy wrote: > I think that you can find your file if you mount the filesystem as a > msdos file system > > mount -t msdos /dev/fatfs-dev /mountpoint > This will take away all of the long filenames from view, and every file > will be 8.3 > > This might work, though I never tried it. > I guess I could give that a try sometime but keep in mind this drive is not mounted on Linux it is a true WinXP system. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:23:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 27360 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:23:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:23:34 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 27321 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:23:31 -0000 Received: from [67.101.227.106] (HELO srv-1.mishafurs.com) (67.101.227.106) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:23:31 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([192.168.1.1]) by srv-1.mishafurs.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jA1FRgmM029566 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:28:14 -0500 Message-ID: <4367883C.4020805@humansky.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:22:36 -0500 From: Henry Umansky User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? References: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> In-Reply-To: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org There is a joint effort in starting a Bux-Mont LUG. In fact, we purchased buxmontlug.org and I'm currently working on the webpage. When it is finished I will make an annoucement. Meanwhile, if you want to help with the webpage or contribute ideas for making it better, please email info@buxmontlug.org and I'll add your name to the list. This invitation goes out to anyone that wants to assist in this project. I feel this can we a fun and fulfilling project. Henry Umansky henry@humansky.com http://www.humansky.com Eric Hidle wrote: > I just moved up here to Lansdale... are there any folks up this way > and/or is there already an established LUG? Anyone interested in > starting one up if there isn't? > E > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >___________________________________________________________________________ >Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org >Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:28:01 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 28135 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:28:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:28:00 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 28120 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:27:58 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:27:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1FRWl00755 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:27:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:27:32 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server In-Reply-To: <436772BD.8090600@patshead.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org I have been using the removeable drive for backup for awhile. I make a copy of the entire operational drive to an identicaly partitioned removable. When I started I used internal ATA removables (USB was not supported) but then moved over to external USB. Today you could use USB internal or external SATA or firewire. All of which are swapable without rebooting. The internal ATA approach was not, so I had to turn the drive on, reboot, backup, unmount and turn it off. The issue of Start/Stop cycles is a little over played. It probably comes from the past when heads were actually crashed into a landing zone. This is not the case anymore and most drives have start/stop MTBF's well over 100,000 and many much more. Here is a reference from the web.... BTW .. I am curious, with the rolllout of SATA is SCSI on the way out? I just put my last SCSI system to sleep here. Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------ START/STOP Cycles This specification, like MTBF and service life, provides a useful clue about the quality of the hard disk, but should not be sweated over. In the great-and-never-ending debate over whether to leave hard disks running or spin them down when idle, some look at the fact that start/stop cycles are specified as evidence that stop/start cycles are "bad" and therefore that drives should always be left running 24/7. As always, maintain perspective: if you start your hard disk in the morning and stop it at night every day for three years, that's only about 1,000 cycles. Even if you do it ten times a day, every day, you're not going to get close to the minimum specification for almost any quality drive, and for notebooks the problem is less significant because the drives are generally designed to withstand many more cycles. IBM drives that use its head load/unload technology are often given a specification for minimum load/unload cycles instead of start/stop cycles. This is basically the same concept, except that the numbers are typically much higher. Some IBM notebook drives are spec'ed for 300,000 load/unload cycles! Even if you started and stopped the drive 100 times a day it would take you over eight years to get to that number ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:30:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 28777 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:30:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:30:09 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 28758 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:30:06 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:30:06 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1FTc400781 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:29:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:29:38 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? In-Reply-To: <4367883C.4020805@humansky.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Henry, I am confused. Is this the same group as the BCLUG mail list that was just created? Doug On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Henry Umansky wrote: > There is a joint effort in starting a Bux-Mont LUG. In fact, we > purchased buxmontlug.org and I'm currently working on the webpage. When > it is finished I will make an annoucement. Meanwhile, if you want to > help with the webpage or contribute ideas for making it better, please > email info@buxmontlug.org and I'll add your name to the list. This > invitation goes out to anyone that wants to assist in this project. I > feel this can we a fun and fulfilling project. > > Henry Umansky > henry@humansky.com > http://www.humansky.com > **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:43:04 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 30080 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:43:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:43:02 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 30039 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:42:59 -0000 Received: from [64.233.162.196] (HELO zproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.162.196) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:42:59 -0500 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i11so1145025nzi for ; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:42:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KcnlKYSWC+lOEyt1ttPdBntDPznTLCfeeKLloTe93lgnusHBaxJ5hK40RY08aScLFYnhWfzd69fvd8u5M7bKd8WFTQM8SIaSabbFSnoWffTQah8JI+YxklQNYlpMrodtg9V9J8XuNi2f+AOKrkhJUPLORJ90BxzvgNcZ1gOaxeo= Received: by 10.36.135.13 with SMTP id i13mr4504024nzd; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 07:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.13.69 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 07:42:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <74e15baa0511010742m65812114iaedbd913301b5e83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:42:57 -0500 From: Aaron Mulder To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? In-Reply-To: <4367883C.4020805@humansky.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> <4367883C.4020805@humansky.com> X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org For what it's worth, the old Bucks County LUG has revived its mailing list and started talking about meetings in Montgomeryville and/or Oxford Valley. Henry, can you make sure to talk to the folks there so we don't end up with two "competing" groups? I'm willing to participate in either in any capacity, for what it's worth, (I'm on the southwest side of Bucks county and work just off the turnpike in Montgomery county). Thanks, Aaron On 11/1/05, Henry Umansky wrote: > There is a joint effort in starting a Bux-Mont LUG. In fact, we > purchased buxmontlug.org and I'm currently working on the webpage. When > it is finished I will make an annoucement. Meanwhile, if you want to > help with the webpage or contribute ideas for making it better, please > email info@buxmontlug.org and I'll add your name to the list. This > invitation goes out to anyone that wants to assist in this project. I > feel this can we a fun and fulfilling project. > > Henry Umansky > henry@humansky.com > http://www.humansky.com > > > > Eric Hidle wrote: > > > I just moved up here to Lansdale... are there any folks up this way > > and/or is there already an established LUG? Anyone interested in > > starting one up if there isn't? > > E > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >________________________________________________________________________= ___ > >Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.= org > >Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-annou= nce > >General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/p= lug > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= __ > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.o= rg > Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announ= ce > General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/pl= ug > ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:47:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 30904 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:47:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:47:35 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 30894 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:47:32 -0000 Received: from [216.158.26.62] (HELO spacecat.mcgillsociety.org) (216.158.26.62) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:47:32 -0500 Received: from [10.0.1.2] (abase.mcgillsociety.org [216.158.26.165]) by spacecat.mcgillsociety.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id jA1FihS310789; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:44:54 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <43664947.1@patshead.com> <70A23F4E-7060-4922-AF72-2C5AD28E70ED@mcgillsociety.org> <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0379711E-6A8B-4810-9E72-95607561EA5F@mcgillsociety.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "William H. Magill" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:46:41 -0500 To: Edmund Goppelt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Cc: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On 01 Nov, 2005, at 08:04, Edmund Goppelt intoned: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 11:52:56PM -0500, William H. Magill wrote: > >> Backup of individual files is solely for their recovery in case of >> deletion. >> >> Backup of a "System" requires that you be capable of restoring the >> SYSTEM to working order as of when the last backup was taken. A >> System is composed of many files. > > I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that it's > impossible to do a bare metal restore using individual files? If you > are, that's not been my experience (see below). Not at all. It's just an issue of time. Nominally, "bear-metal" refers to restoring the OS structure only. Application restore may or may not be included. However, "bare-metal" restores themselves come in different sizes and shapes. A "ghosted" image restores faster than a complete rebuild and configure from "source" media (no, not necessarily recompiling). A restore to an OS release that is 2 or 3 levels behind is different than restoring to latest updates. ... lots of variables. > And if you're not dealing with files, what units of storage are you > dealing with? Partitions? Minimally, yes. Rather, "the contents of storage devices," independent of any particular format. Back in the days of VMS (DEC's proprietary system), DEC's backup software allowed one to make a "disk image backup." This "disk image" was used to do bear-metal restores. All that was required was that the disk be prepped with labels, no formatting was necessary as the restore would reconstruct whatever format was on the image. [OS X has a similar capability, called a "disk image" which theoretically could be used in a backup script to accomplish the same thing. I think. However, "ghosting" of PC systems is probably the most common version around today.] DEC's "volume level" restoration always operated at the write speed of the disk as it took place without the necessity of creating each and every individual file's catalog entry. The process was much faster than restoring by individual file. ("Obviously," the number of writes to create and update the catalog entry is more than the number of writes needed to restore the file alone.) > As I recall you used to work for Penn which has lots of > resources--both money and people. I'm in a different situation: it's > just me and I have to watch every penny. Correct, almost 30 years in both the Engineering School and the Vice Provost for Computing's organization. > I realize you may not be used to working under such constraints, but > I'd love to hear your thoughts. How do you think I should go about > backing up my 8 or so systems? That was the point of Mark's list of questions. Your solution may be quite optimal for your situation. Without going through the exercise, you won't know. One must completely ignore the possible cost until the scope of the problem is outlined and potential solutions defined. Once the scope of the problem, i.e. goals to accomplish, is defined, those goals must be prioritized. If recovery of accidentally deleted files is the highest priority, if Archival Storage of customer data is highest, if protection against catastrophic System failure is the highest, if minimizing down-time is highest -- so be it. Once that list of priorities is defined, one looks at potential solutions, again ignoring the cost. Once various potential solutions are defined, you determine which of those solutions meets the most important of your goals... THEN you cost it out. If costs are a significant constraint, then you know immediately what your "chosen solution" will actually accomplish, and what it will not. Keep in mind that this is an iterative process. Once the proposed solution is costed out and you have to start deleting from your prioritized list, you have to return to the exercise of determining your priorities. Are your original requirements more important than the reduced list? But in the end, you will know just what your solution will accomplish and what it will "cost" in terms of unfilled requirements. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" backup solution. Every enterprise defines its own "scope." Every solution has pros and cons. You often wind up trading off minimizing downtime for Archival Storage capabilities. Tape is STILL the cheapest Archival media, but it SLOW. "Bricks" (removable disks) can replace tape, but they are expensive. ... etc. [Note, that the cost of tape vs disk for archival storage is really only existent in the small-to-medium "size" market. Once you get to a certain size, the inability of tape to restore in a timely fashion clearly outweighs its cost benefits. In the "large" market, tape is virtually unusable for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is the simple "capacity of the tape" issue.] If you were a financial oriented enterprise, where the cost of minutes of downtime were measured in thousands of dollars, the fact that is going to take 30 minutes to do a bear-metal restore, can easily be costed out as $30,000! A substantial budget one can use for replicating systems and keeping them around as "hot standbys," even if they are not used for months or years at a time! >> The primary issue is -- how long is it going to take you to return >> things to the way they were "before" you lost the system? A 1-TB >> data store takes A LONG TIME to restore! > > This has not been my experience. It took me about 4 hours to do a > bare metal restore of my main web/database server recently. > > The 1 TB refers to the storage capacity available for backups. Most > of my systems use less than 80GB. Right. I was talking about how long it DOES take to restore a 1-TB "system." >> "What happens when the architect gets hit by a bus?" > > At this point, backups become somebody else's problem. Only true for the proprietorship case. If it's a partnership, it falls to the partner. If its a corporation, it falls to the rest of the IT organization. "Somebody else" can be a significant problem. Business continuation ability is a big question. Small businesses are at particular risk because they operate either as a proprietorship or a partnership where one partner does one thing, while the other does something else. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill # Beige G3 [Rev A motherboard - 300 MHz 768 Meg] OS X 10.2.8 # Flat-panel iMac (2.1) [800MHz - Super Drive - 768 Meg] OS X 10.4.1 # PWS433a [Alpha 21164 Rev 7.2 (EV56)- 64 Meg] Tru64 5.1a # XP1000 [Alpha 21264-3 (EV6) - 256 meg] FreeBSD 5.3 # XP1000 [Alpha 21264-A (EV 6.7) - 384 meg] FreeBSD 5.3 magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com whmagill@gmail.com ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 15:54:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 31982 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 15:54:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 15:54:55 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 31970 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 15:54:52 -0000 Received: from [216.158.26.62] (HELO spacecat.mcgillsociety.org) (216.158.26.62) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:54:52 -0500 Received: from [10.0.1.2] (abase.mcgillsociety.org [216.158.26.165]) by spacecat.mcgillsociety.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id jA1FqLS310811 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:52:21 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) In-Reply-To: <436772BD.8090600@patshead.com> References: <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <43664947.1@patshead.com> <70A23F4E-7060-4922-AF72-2C5AD28E70ED@mcgillsociety.org> <20051101130439.GI19989@merc.goppelt.net> <436772BD.8090600@patshead.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <02B521C8-5D41-46C6-BC04-41E1E1DA9CDA@mcgillsociety.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "William H. Magill" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:54:30 -0500 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On 01 Nov, 2005, at 08:50, Pat Regan intoned: > I don't think the odds are high that all your machines will suffer a > failure at the same time unless there is a natural disaster. I > will bet > that in your case, the last thing you will be worrying about is > those 8 > machines :). Natural disasters ARE an issue. Their probability was completely discounted by virtually everyone. (Except those entities with Federal Regulations requiring that they have some detailed "disaster recovery" plan in place, primarily any financial entity under control of the Comptroller of the Currency or National Credit Union Administration.) But, in the wake of this year's hurricanes in the south, the issue is much more visible. One must make the evaluation based on your own unique situation. The news media has focused on the impact on "large corporations" and how quickly they have recovered. However, there are undoubtedly many small and medium sized businesses which are going to be starting over from the beginning ... if they start over at all. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill # Beige G3 [Rev A motherboard - 300 MHz 768 Meg] OS X 10.2.8 # Flat-panel iMac (2.1) [800MHz - Super Drive - 768 Meg] OS X 10.4.1 # PWS433a [Alpha 21164 Rev 7.2 (EV56)- 64 Meg] Tru64 5.1a # XP1000 [Alpha 21264-3 (EV6) - 256 meg] FreeBSD 5.3 # XP1000 [Alpha 21264-A (EV 6.7) - 384 meg] FreeBSD 5.3 magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com whmagill@gmail.com ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 16:51:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 16000 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 16:51:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 16:51:07 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 15963 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 16:51:04 -0000 Received: from [66.92.109.218] (HELO lrcressy.com) (66.92.109.218) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:51:04 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.1] (helo=[192.168.1.1]) by lrcressy.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EWzKj-0002ra-A2 for plug@lists.phillylinux.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:50:01 -0500 Message-ID: <43679C8A.9040102@lrcressy.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:49:14 -0500 From: LeRoy Cressy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050927 Debian/1.7.8-1sarge3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, en-ca, en-gb, en-au MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] OT - winxp file evaporation References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Doug Crompton wrote: > On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, LeRoy Cressy wrote: > > >>I think that you can find your file if you mount the filesystem as a >>msdos file system >> >>mount -t msdos /dev/fatfs-dev /mountpoint >>This will take away all of the long filenames from view, and every file >>will be 8.3 >> >>This might work, though I never tried it. >> > > I guess I could give that a try sometime but keep in mind this drive is > not mounted on Linux it is a true WinXP system. > > Doug The second question is is the file system a ntfs or a vfat file system. If it is a vfat file system then you can use my suggestion above using a KNOPPIX CD. On the other hand, I think that you might have to use some of the forensics utilities mentioned last week on this list. - -- Rev. LeRoy D. Cressy mailto:leroy@lrcressy.com /\_/\ http://lrcressy.com ( o.o ) Phone: 215-535-4037 > ^ < FAX: 215-535-4285 gpg fingerprint: 62DE 6CAB CEE1 B1B3 359A 81D8 3FEF E6DA 8501 AFEA For info on enigmail: http://lrcressy.com/linux/mozilla.pdf For info on gpg: http://www.gnupg.org/ Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Debian - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBQ2eciXlsxrSGsIsqAQoW/w//S/p/V05oZ01hMjLG4M1WHsFGX88HBw38 W1UjnYTfS7lIflvvyVn8zbO9yK9Q0JmY6aaEGEHWjq6qn88d6LphGY2HZydvGZeX Ddy3s2fOPlc7wvRVWsgNQ/kvw4Fl2RbR2S6co9t+ha0xKsAyuXjt5k2DeEormQfN NXN2EPbjCksM+1rJSs6gdZDqnnksgs7KJdeUrDrwvku38oOYoAzyEbeEUtpXVRlV TzwLR1D7vsG8ce6WFhn96l/O1km77c17H8ppzo1knDph144e/hY6YzSHUEzFEKJA CUROtNv5Ca8ZHNoeuvrbK8c5mEdmjm9klyJQ3RHOzERJ7BrImEqrM9SbMdWSC08Y 1j29m+XUdX1NNSt4Px77Zaix2JBW6dqHMJtrn0yNg/xxEK4gUufEvbA1/rPDgrmT B6HGh4wyoWp/VT02JzSW7fHxubDl93B07fKQXNbqRALKuPxyRH2eFIEaomxRbKkm tjoxDi6xxAcgTHQ2aKtjSXFmyBV2EobK4Ee0/sIDcTL899+aiQz6xYLjI21vw0L8 busJLl/Pn5RDxvX1llbJ19hNVUPTdjKECeQIe2lvn+7y+XR7pH1DS6o4aOagP4jO md3bpVl+ygzaqgxm0x80IOG/y5Uge4G0r8z+hQm0b1FfHPz8yNGpnOSSuMwHqXEr T/cevOF12Uk= =XWkZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 17:02:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 18550 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 17:02:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 17:02:02 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 18445 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 17:01:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 17:01:57 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug-announce@phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 18418 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Nov 2005 17:01:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:01:55 -0500 From: "Michael C. Toren" To: plug-announce@phillylinux.org Message-ID: <20051101170155.GK10702@netisland.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Moon: The Moon is New X-BeenThere: plug-announce@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Subject: [PLUG] [plug-announce] November 2, 2005: "HAM Packet Radio, GPS, and APRS with Linux" X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Announcements , Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org ____________________________________________________ ________| |_______ \ | The Philadelphia Area Linux Users Group | / \ | (PLUG) cordially invites you to our next | / \ | meeting, Wednesday, November 2, 2005 | / > | at The University of the Sciences in | < / | Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | \ / |____________________________________________________| \ /__________) (_________\ The topic of this month's meeting is "HAM Packet Radio, GPS, and APRS with Linux", presented by Paul J. Morris. The meeting will take place from 7-9PM, at: University of the Sciences in Philadelphia (USP) Griffith Hall C 600 South 43rd Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-4495 USP is located in University City. Driving directions are available at , or , both of which have an aerial view of the campus buildings. USP is also easily accessible by public transportation. There will be an open Question & Answer session at 7PM, prior to the main presentation at 8PM. This is an open meeting; all are welcome, and encouraged to attend. Usually, a number of members get together after the meeting at a nearby restaurant for food and perhaps a beer or two. Come join the camaraderie! _______________________________________________ plug-announce mailing list plug-announce@lists.phillylinux.org http://lists.netisland.net/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 17:04:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 19397 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 17:03:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 17:03:59 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 19362 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 17:03:53 -0000 Received: from [204.127.202.55] (HELO sccrmhc11.comcast.net) (204.127.202.55) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:03:53 -0500 Received: from merctech.com (pcp04308230pcs.phnixv01.pa.comcast.net[68.60.246.161]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005110117025501100ru7s6e>; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:03:01 +0000 Received: from piquin (piquin [127.0.0.1]) by merctech.com (8.13.4/8.12.8) with ESMTP id jA1H2i6b015139 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:02:44 -0500 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.1 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" From: bergman@merctech.com Subject: Re: [PLUG] Re: RAID Backup Server In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:20:43 EST." <43676BAB.40106@patshead.com> References: <43676BAB.40106@patshead.com> <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <20051101000929.GH19989@merc.goppelt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:02:44 -0500 Message-ID: <15138.1130864564@piquin> X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: bergman@merctech.com, Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org In the message dated: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:20:43 EST, The pithy ruminations from Pat Regan on were: => => Tom Diehl wrote: => > There is also rdiff-backup. Uses rsync technology, can talk to a remote => > site over ssh and keeps diffs going as far back as you have the disk space => > to store (if that is what you want). ;) => > => => rdiff-backup is a wonderful piece of software, especially if you want to => keep lots of small incremental backups around. I like to use => rdiff-backup to backup all my data to a single location. I keep just => about as many increments as will fit, and I use this location as a => staging area for generating real backups. Yep. For some small sites, I'm doing something very similar, using BackupPC (http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/info.html). The server side is Perl, and it speaks rsync and samba (so clients can be *nix or Windoze boxes). It does some nice things with building "composite" backups, where identical files from your N different machines are really only stored as a single file. For example, at site "A", I've got 4 machines with about 65GB of usable disk space. There are 17 full backups, and 20 incrementals, going back about 2 months. The space requirement prior to pooling and compression is about 172GB, and the actual space used is less than 1/3 of that. This is actually a bad case, as the 4 machines are different architectures, and have almost no files in common. At site "B", there are 11 servers that are more similar. There are 28 full backups and 58 incrementals in the last month, which would take up almost exactly 1TB of space, but which really consume less than 1/2 of that. Getting that data => => The only disadvantage is the CPU hit from generating the differentials => (for anyone who doesn't know, rdiff-backup only stores the pieces of a => file that changed instead of entire copies of changed files). The rsync algorithm sends only the delta between versions of a file, but the copy on the backup server is saved as a real file, not as just the changed pieces. I'm guessing that the CPU hit is similar. Does rdiff require something (ie, another invocation of rdiff) to reassemble the file, and can you choose which version to recover. Does it function like [rcs|sccs|cvs]? The real hit with rsync is in building the catalog of files that have changed, prior to sending them to the backup server. The memory use for a large file system is quite substantial. => => > The only thing I would like to see is the ability to encrypt the stored => > data on the fly but you cannot have everything. What's your concern here? Are you worried about sniffing the traffic, or about the security of the stored data? I assume that you could set things up to talk over an ssh or ssl tunnel. => > => => There is another related project called Duplicity, and I only played => with it a little bit. Everything is stored encrypted using gpg. I => didn't much care for the way it handled the encryption, though... => => Apparently the default is to use symmetric encryption. I wanted to use => asymmetric encryption... I figured that way the backup process would => only need my public key, then I would be able to decrypt it with my => private key. OK. Have you considered using an encrypted filesystem? It offers the advantage that (once the machine is up and you've entered your key), there's no need for more interaction, and it's transparent to the applications. It won't protect you from malicious users, but it's a possible solution for removable drives (pull out the disk, and send it to the Duluth office as an off-site backup), or securing data in the event that someone steals your server. It's also nice to know that the data's encrypted, so that if a drive dies, or needs to be RMA'd, even if you can't erase it, the data is reasonably safe. Mark => => Unfortunately, Duplicity needs access the encrypted archive. That means => the backup process needs to be able to have access to the private key... => At that point I stopped investigating Duplicity :). => => Pat => => => --------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3 => Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" => Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature => Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" => => -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- => Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) => => iD8DBQFDZ2ur5xI+FcVJCrERAm6sAKCxBXWMFL9nxDahr6/tqD/49lkX2ACeMW6S => CyFRki3VL2hU/UkfHLfVa34= => =V7Bw => -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- => => --------------enig6C5E4321D769CE7643D391D3-- => => --===============1226269513== => Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" => MIME-Version: 1.0 => Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit => Content-Disposition: inline => => ___________________________________________________________________________ => Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org => Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce => General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug => => --===============1226269513==-- => ----- Mark Bergman Biker, Rock Climber, Unix mechanic, IATSE #1 Stagehand http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=bergman%40merctech.com I want a newsgroup with a infinite S/N ratio! Now taking CFV on: rec.motorcycles.stagehands.pet-bird-owners.pinballers.unix-supporters 15+ So Far--Want to join? Check out: http://www.panix.com/~bergman ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 17:16:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 22035 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 17:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 17:16:42 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 22025 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 17:16:40 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:16:40 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1HGJEs001824 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:16:19 -0500 Message-ID: <4367A2DA.9050806@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:16:10 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1906051248==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1906051248== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig24890E03A9A6106627CC27F6" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig24890E03A9A6106627CC27F6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug Crompton wrote: > I have been using the removeable drive for backup for awhile. I make a > copy of the entire operational drive to an identicaly partitioned > removable. When I started I used internal ATA removables (USB was not > supported) but then moved over to external USB. Today you could use USB > internal or external SATA or firewire. All of which are swapable without > rebooting. The internal ATA approach was not, so I had to turn the drive > on, reboot, backup, unmount and turn it off. An external hard drive doesn't qualify as removable media. You want you backup media to have less ways of failing, so you want to separate the read/write mechanism from the media. If any part of a hard drive besides the platters fails, your data is lost. With tapes, DVD, CD, or even floppies you don't have this problem, making them much more durable. Would you worry about losing data if you knocked a DVD off your desk, especially if it were in a case? How about if you knocked a hard drive off your desk? I have accidentally subjected DLT tapes to pretty large g-forces, and then watched them slide across the room :). If the tape actually did physically break, I'd likely be able to fix it. If that were a hard drive... I doubt it. Pat --------------enig24890E03A9A6106627CC27F6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ6Lg5xI+FcVJCrERAqZnAKCF5ajpCNcCALcGB84p1S3+wlfYjgCgiufT HYJbpaQUI7p6U7spMgXpPgw= =mUZt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig24890E03A9A6106627CC27F6-- --===============1906051248== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============1906051248==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 17:39:58 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 26988 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 17:39:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 17:39:57 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 26947 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 17:39:55 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:39:55 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1HdWXk017217; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:39:32 -0500 Message-ID: <4367A853.7030608@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 12:39:31 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bergman@merctech.com, "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] Re: RAID Backup Server References: <43676BAB.40106@patshead.com> <20051031142641.GD19989@merc.goppelt.net> <3906.1130771453@piquin> <20051101000929.GH19989@merc.goppelt.net> <15138.1130864564@piquin> In-Reply-To: <15138.1130864564@piquin> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0394301757==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============0394301757== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig314EC1FC14DE571AD58B1A56" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig314EC1FC14DE571AD58B1A56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bergman@merctech.com wrote: > Yep. For some small sites, I'm doing something very similar, using BackupPC > (http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/info.html). The server side is Perl, and it > speaks rsync and samba (so clients can be *nix or Windoze boxes). It does some > nice things with building "composite" backups, where identical files from your > N different machines are really only stored as a single file. > I have often wished rdiff-backup could find identical (or similar) files between backup sets and only store the differences. When storing incremental snapshots, does BackupPC store entire changed files, or just the blocks that changed? > => The only disadvantage is the CPU hit from generating the differentials > => (for anyone who doesn't know, rdiff-backup only stores the pieces of a > => file that changed instead of entire copies of changed files). > > The rsync algorithm sends only the delta between versions of a file, but the > copy on the backup server is saved as a real file, not as just the changed > pieces. I'm guessing that the CPU hit is similar. Does rdiff require something > (ie, another invocation of rdiff) to reassemble the file, and can you choose > which version to recover. Does it function like [rcs|sccs|cvs]? > I think the CPU hit really comes in because of the way the incrementals are stored. With rdiff-backup, current backup is the full backup. Anything behind that is stored as an rdiff against the tree before it... So if a file changed every day, and you wanted to restore the oldest copy, rdiff-backup would have to apply every diff to get back to that point. Recovery speed isn't something I have ever had to worry about though. If I need an entire tree, I need the latest. If I need something old, I don't need much :). > The real hit with rsync is in building the catalog of files that have changed, > prior to sending them to the backup server. The memory use for a large file > system is quite substantial. > rdiff-backup isn't very memory hungry, it goes one file at a time. I should probably quantify my statement saying that rdiff-backup is CPU intensive. On any backup after the first on the LAN, the backup speed is usually limited by CPU and not network or disk. As the network speed drops to the 100k/sec range it becomes network bound. > => > => > The only thing I would like to see is the ability to encrypt the stored > => > data on the fly but you cannot have everything. > > What's your concern here? Are you worried about sniffing the traffic, or about > the security of the stored data? I assume that you could set things up to talk > over an ssh or ssl tunnel. In my case, I have been thinking about storing my personal backups on my virtual server. Since I don't trust the people who run the machine with my data, I would want my data encrypted. I have been mulling over the idea of colocating a machine with tons of disk to share with some friends for backing up data. If the machine was in a colo, I would want the data encrypted, too :). > OK. Have you considered using an encrypted filesystem? It offers the advantage > that (once the machine is up and you've entered your key), there's no need for > more interaction, and it's transparent to the applications. It won't protect > you from malicious users, but it's a possible solution for removable drives > (pull out the disk, and send it to the Duluth office as an off-site backup), or > securing data in the event that someone steals your server. It's also nice to > know that the data's encrypted, so that if a drive dies, or needs to be RMA'd, > even if you can't erase it, the data is reasonably safe. > If the machine is available on the internet I would rather have the individual backups encrypted. Each user could have their own keys, and wouldn't have to fully trust each other. Pat --------------enig314EC1FC14DE571AD58B1A56 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ6hT5xI+FcVJCrERAvhTAJ0YyAqdj/hyZD59wpX0XaQv6saGggCg2BuS ySjg09QAsqwYr/Zv06YZ4mg= =X7kt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig314EC1FC14DE571AD58B1A56-- --===============0394301757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============0394301757==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 18:39:18 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 3389 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 18:39:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 18:39:17 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 3377 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 18:39:14 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:39:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1Icm102411 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:38:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:38:48 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server In-Reply-To: <4367A2DA.9050806@patshead.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Pat Regan wrote: > An external hard drive doesn't qualify as removable media. You want you > backup media to have less ways of failing, so you want to separate the > read/write mechanism from the media. If any part of a hard drive > besides the platters fails, your data is lost. > > With tapes, DVD, CD, or even floppies you don't have this problem, > making them much more durable. Would you worry about losing data if you > knocked a DVD off your desk, especially if it were in a case? How about > if you knocked a hard drive off your desk? > > I have accidentally subjected DLT tapes to pretty large g-forces, and > then watched them slide across the room :). If the tape actually did > physically break, I'd likely be able to fix it. If that were a hard > drive... I doubt it. > > Pat > > > All true, but in my past experience tape is not on my list of things I want to have. Just bad experiences. I have a thing about non-random access. I like to see the whole picture. Understanding the problems with abuse of a drive is important. Since I am the 'backer upper' I can deal with that. Removable media other than tape is limited to at best (presently with most equipment) about 5 GB. I will stick with the hard drive backup. It costs about $100 for 300GB give or take. Hard Dive capacity is continually rising. I would never treat raid of any kind as backup. Some failure mode could wipe out the entire array or enough of it to make it unusable. All it takes it a massive power surge or lightning strike. No matter how well you think it is protected it could happen. Large companies with offices in many cities could easily develope a realtime multiple site backup. smaller companies would probably have to pay for the service. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 18:57:24 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 5735 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 18:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 18:57:23 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-PLUG@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 5723 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 18:57:21 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:57:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1IuuE02606 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:56:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: Phila Linux Users Group Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [PLUG] DSL speed X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Just wanted to remind those that are DSL with Verizon carrier. Data rates have doubled but you have to request the increase. They do not do it automatically. I have DCA net and I just got a rate doubling but I had to request it. They put an order into Verizon and it was done in less than a week. You just need to reboot your modem. Of course this depends on where you started. I was 1.5M now 3M. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 19:24:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 9157 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 19:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 19:24:16 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 9116 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 19:24:14 -0000 Received: from [63.240.77.82] (HELO sccrmhc12.comcast.net) (63.240.77.82) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:24:14 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.105] (pcp09527195pcs.audubn01.nj.comcast.net[68.46.49.47]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2005110119235201200f1me4e>; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 19:23:52 +0000 Message-ID: <4367C0CC.4070102@comcast.net> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 14:23:56 -0500 From: gyoza@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] DSL speed References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org What about the limited $15 per month lines? I guess they will stay the same? Doug Crompton wrote: >Just wanted to remind those that are DSL with Verizon carrier. Data rates >have doubled but you have to request the increase. They do not do it >automatically. I have DCA net and I just got a rate doubling but I had to >request it. They put an order into Verizon and it was done in less than a >week. You just need to reboot your modem. Of course this depends on where >you started. I was 1.5M now 3M. > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 20:00:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 13527 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 20:00:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 20:00:48 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 13515 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 20:00:45 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:00:45 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1K0GM03174 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:00:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:00:16 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] DSL speed In-Reply-To: <4367C0CC.4070102@comcast.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 gyoza@comcast.net wrote: > What about the limited $15 per month lines? I guess they will stay the > same? I think that stays at 768K. Thats a good rate for that price considering many paid $20+ for a dialup. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 21:08:57 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 21335 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 21:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 21:08:56 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 21292 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 21:08:52 -0000 Received: from [216.148.227.117] (HELO rwcrmhc11.comcast.net) (216.148.227.117) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:08:52 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.151] (pcp0010229529pcs.frncna01.pa.comcast.net[69.242.87.214]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2005110121083101300eboo2e>; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:08:31 +0000 From: Jesus Arocho To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] LUG near Lansdale? Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:08:35 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> In-Reply-To: <004101c5dedd$e903b480$bc3491a4@pa62d.iac.honeywell.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511011608.36526.jesus_arocho@comcast.net> X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org I live in Franconia. I think there was a group trying to organize a LUG=20 around this area. Meeting places such as Borders, at the 309/202 shopping= =20 mall area, were under consideration. I lost track of the threads so I don= =C2=B4t=20 know what the outcome was. On Tuesday 01 November 2005 06:59, Eric Hidle wrote: > I just moved up here to Lansdale... are there any folks up this way and/or > is there already an established LUG? Anyone interested in starting one up > if there isn't? E ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 21:14:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 22221 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 21:14:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 21:14:28 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 22180 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 21:14:26 -0000 Received: from [65.254.53.88] (HELO patshead.com) (65.254.53.88) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:14:26 -0500 Received: from [10.0.2.3] (24-52-97-135.bflony.adelphia.net [24.52.97.135]) by patshead.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-5) with ESMTP id jA1LE4JQ011072 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:14:04 -0500 Message-ID: <4367DA9C.50802@patshead.com> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:14:04 -0500 From: Pat Regan User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051017) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1981378176==" Mime-version: 1.0 Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1981378176== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6B79CEE0ACB36F78EAA1D54E" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6B79CEE0ACB36F78EAA1D54E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug Crompton wrote: > All true, but in my past experience tape is not on my list of things I > want to have. Just bad experiences. I have a thing about non-random > access. I like to see the whole picture. Understanding the problems with > abuse of a drive is important. Since I am the 'backer upper' I can deal > with that. Removable media other than tape is limited to at best > (presently with most equipment) about 5 GB. I will stick with the hard > drive backup. It costs about $100 for 300GB give or take. Hard Dive > capacity is continually rising. What about transporting your backups to/from an off site location? Hard drives are much more sensitive to heat, cold, and humidity. Although heat probably can melt a DVD :). I am quite paranoid, myself. I even store my at home personal backups off site. It may only be one town away, but it protects me against fire. And I would hate to lose the last 5 years worth of digital pictures :). I only tend to move my personal backups off site every 6-12 months, though :). Pat --------------enig6B79CEE0ACB36F78EAA1D54E Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDZ9qc5xI+FcVJCrERArnIAJ9ZpsTza+rL/I0x2/JGLuY+IuK8eQCghfBi WUixVIuBugqsDvKCKMjDge0= =bRgf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6B79CEE0ACB36F78EAA1D54E-- --===============1981378176== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug --===============1981378176==-- From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 21:30:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 24943 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 21:30:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 21:30:47 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 24902 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 21:30:44 -0000 Received: from [129.25.7.60] (HELO einstein.physics.drexel.edu) (129.25.7.60) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:30:44 -0500 Received: from silicon.physics.drexel.edu (silicon.physics.drexel.edu [129.25.8.33]) by einstein.physics.drexel.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4A3D7ED3 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:30:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: Avijit Ghosh To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List Subject: Re: [PLUG] DSL speed In-Reply-To: <4367C0CC.4070102@comcast.net> Message-ID: References: <4367C0CC.4070102@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org > > >Just wanted to remind those that are DSL with Verizon carrier. Data rates > >have doubled but you have to request the increase. They do not do it > >automatically. I have DCA net and I just got a rate doubling but I had to > >request it. They put an order into Verizon and it was done in less than a > >week. You just need to reboot your modem. Of course this depends on where > >you started. I was 1.5M now 3M. Do you know if they flip your contract to the new one when you do this? The old 1.5M contract was flat $23 or so until eternity, the new 3.0M contract for new signups seems to be $23 for a year as a "promotion" and then they up your monthly to something else like $35. I haven't flipped over yet because of this. -avi ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 22:59:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 1293 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 22:59:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 22:59:08 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 1263 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 22:59:04 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:59:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1MwZZ04476 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:58:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:58:35 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] DSL speed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Avijit Ghosh wrote: > > Do you know if they flip your contract to the new one when > you do this? The old 1.5M contract was flat $23 or so until eternity, the > new 3.0M contract for new signups seems to be $23 for a year as a > "promotion" and then they up your monthly to something else like $35. I > haven't flipped over yet because of this. > > -avi I don't think so. But I am not Verizon ISP. I am DCA Net. They do not charge or change anything. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 23:07:46 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 2582 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 23:07:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 23:07:45 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 2570 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 23:07:43 -0000 Received: from [207.245.69.226] (HELO bridget.crompton.com) (207.245.69.226) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:07:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by bridget.crompton.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id jA1N7Gc04565 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:07:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:07:16 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Crompton To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" Subject: Re: [PLUG] RAID Backup Server In-Reply-To: <4367DA9C.50802@patshead.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Errors-To: plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Pat Regan wrote: > I am quite paranoid, myself. I even store my at home personal backups > off site. It may only be one town away, but it protects me against > fire. And I would hate to lose the last 5 years worth of digital > pictures :). I only tend to move my personal backups off site every > 6-12 months, though :). > > Pat > I do tend to think that Hard drives (not running) are more rugged then you might think. Not something you want to test but hey they do come to you in a box and shippers have no mercy. Yea I guess that is kinda paranoid but since you can do it and it does not take much effort then why not. I don't know of anyone that stored photos offsite before we had digital. People did use bank boxes more though. I guess we still should but somehow I can't be bothered. Doug **************************** * Doug Crompton * * Richboro, PA 18954 * * 215-431-6307 * * * * doug@crompton.com * * http://www.crompton.com * **************************** ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug From plug-bounces@lists.phillylinux.org Tue Nov 01 23:10:44 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: historian@netisland.net Received: (qmail 3304 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 23:10:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ellesmere.netisland.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 23:10:44 -0000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: alias-plug@lists.phillylinux.org Received: (qmail 3294 invoked by uid 107); 1 Nov 2005 23:10:41 -0000 Received: from [209.73.179.140] (HELO smtp102.vzn.mail.dcn.yahoo.com) (209.73.179.140) by mail.netisland.net (qpsmtpd/0.28) with SMTP; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:10:41 -0500 Received: (qmail 73565 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2005 23:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?141.151.88.43?) (art.alexion@verizon.net@141.151.88.43 with plain) by smtp102.vzn.mail.dcn.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2005 23:10:19 -0000 Message-ID: <4367F60D.3030505@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:11:09 -0500 From: Art Alexion User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20051011) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Subject: [PLUG] Editing System V init X-BeenThere: plug@lists.phillylinux.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Id: Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List List-Unsubscribe: