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On Tue, Dec 28, 1999 at 06:49:37PM -0500, Michael W. Ryan wrote:
> Still, not the same. In order for a DVD decoder to work, it has to have
> the encryption key, not just an encryption algorithm. In order for it to
> be "open", it'll need to have source code. With the source code, you can
> change what you do with the data (as you acknowledge later). Tell me, how
> is the movie industry supposed to assured that copying won't happen?
> Especially given the "f*** you" attitude that's been taken over this,
> already?
Ok. So off the top of my head I couldnt solve the problem elegantly.
The general point is, there are better ways to deal with this than
to sue someone who wants to make a piece of hardware work. Forget the
piracy issue for a moment. I have a computer. I also have a DVD drive.
I'd like to use it. That is the central issue. If the industry ignores
requests for a player, and I create one, why is that bad?
The issue is not "I want to copy DVD's". The issue for me at least,
is "I want to play DVD's". I dont have a problem going to the DVD
store and picking up a copy of the Matrix.
Personaly I think they'd be better off going with a more cooperative
effort. A similar issue was raised when Id software released the source
for quake1. People began modifying clients to take advantage of the
network code. Its a long story but the summary is, the quake1 server
would give the client more info than was strictly needed and depend on
the client to not exploit that. Once the protocol was known, security
went out the window. Both the quake and the DVD issue could borrow a
page from annother open source project that had issues with people
hacking the client. Netrek. I read the following on slashdot and thought
it could apply to several things. It could also make most people happy.
You'd be able to make your own player that wrapped arround a 'core'
rendering piece (or something). Kind of like all the GUI mp3 players
that wrap arround mpg123.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/12/26/1255258&mode=thread
by lorimer (squidly@bottom.of.the.sea.com)
"As several others have pointed out, Netrek solved this problem a LONG
time ago. I'm responding where I am so that this post gets, hopefully,
seen by everyone who hasn't read yet, so we don't get any more vague,
unclueful debate on this.
The solution is very simple. ID compiles a 'vanilla blessed' server.
ID compiles a 'vanilla blessed' client. They create an encrypted binary
key for the 'blessed' client, based on the client binary itself. They
distribute this key with the vanilla server. They allow server gods
to add any additional compiled keys they want - and to turn off or on
whether key checking is used.
Now, every single server will be able to be accessed by the vanilla
blessed client, no matter what. It all works out of the box. Turn on
key checking, and no hacked binaries or recompiled clients will work
on your server. Want to make a mod? Compile your modified client
binary and distribute a matching encrypted server key for it. Server
gods add your key if they like your client. It's that simple. If you
want to run a "chaos" server, turn off key checking. Anyone can come
in and do what they want - and THAT is often pretty fun.
It works great. People have been trying, and failing, to make 'borg'
clients for Netrek for quite a long time now. There are some very good
borgs that used to play on the Chaos servers. But they don't and CAN'T
get into the vanilla servers."
> > An open spec that utilized something similar to private/public keys
> > might work. Then again, if you can read it, you can write it. Further,
> > talk about practicality. Do you have any idea how BIG a ripped DVD is?
> > The cost of the blank media alone plus the const of storage space/time
> > to download is greater than the cost of just buying the DVD.
>
> Honestly, do you really think that's an issue? These were the same
> arguments made about CDs and VHS tapes.
>
Exactly. And what happened to the recording industry? Last time I
checked there were still plenty of rich rock stars and record
executives.
Then again, I'm not very sympathetic toward hollywood. I think the
best description I've found was in the Cryptonomicon.
"Hollywood was merely a specialized bank-a consortium of large
financial entities that hired talent, almost always for a flat rate,
ordered that talent to create a product, and then marketed that product
to death, all over the world, in every conceivable medium. The goal was
to find products that would keep on making money forever, long after the
talent had been paid off and sent packing. Casablanca, for example, was
still putting asses in seats decades after Bogart had been paid off and
smoked himself into an early grave."
And now, confronted with the possiblility that the money pit may indeed
have a bottom, they are panicked. Rather than think up a new strategy
to capitalize on I guess its just easier to sue people and file
injunctions.
> Oh, yes. I forgot the freakin' Linux/Open Source mantra: no one is
> allowed to have legitimate, traditional business goals, such as making a
> profit. And yes, I do support Linux, I'm just starting to see the Linux
> community as more self-deluding as time goes on.
I'm not sure what to say to this. I'm not sure which is more self
deluded. Right or wrong, for better or worse, the cat is out of
the bag. Rather than chase a bunch of people arround trying to put the
cat back in the bag, I'm just saying it makes more sense for them to
embrace it. They could learn from the mistakes made by the RIAA over
mp3's. If you ask me, Sony, Capitol, Interscope, all those lables could
have started putting out mp3 devices. They could have started an online
store where you could pay a nominal fee and download whatever tracks you
wanted.
I think you're confusing my advocacy and support for DVD under linux for
me advocating piracy. The 2 issues are separate. Personally I'd rather
see the industry and the developers settle on a mutually beneficial way
to accomplish their common goal. The developers want to have working
DVD players. The industry wants to sell more DVD's. I fail to see where
the conflict of interest is here. Had the industry provided a public
API or demonstrated a willingness to provide support, then none of this
would have happened.
Maybe I'm dense. But this seems to me not far from microsoft trying to
stop the wine project. I suppose I'm moraly bankrupt. Maybe I just dont
get it.
Mental
--
"you make insanity respectable."
--Helcat on the subject of Mental.
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