Re: [PLUG] microsoft lost

[Bill Jonas <bj@netaxs.com>]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Michael W. Ryan wrote:

>If I was involved (I don't remember), it was probably asking.  And I have
>been; however, restraint only goes so far.

Ah.  It seemed that you were, but I was (and still am) to lazy to check
either my personal archive or the web archive.

>Politics are politics.  Last time I looked, Linux was an operating system,
>not a philosophy.

True; however, IMO it is the embodiment of one philosophy.  You don't
have to agree with this philosophy in order to use Linux, of course, but
there are also many people drawn to it because of what it represents to
them and/or others.

>No, Open Source software isn't inherently superior.  It has a better
>potential to be superior.  Crap software is crap software, whether you
>have the source code or not.  Open Source didn't save Navigator.

I agree to a point (the last point remains to be seen); certainly there
are some very very good non-free programs as well as some totally crap
free programs.  I fear, though, I may have obfuscated my argument by
using a loaded word like "inherently".  The point I was trying to make
was that if you have free and non-free software with equal feature sets,
ease-of-use, hardware requirements, bugginess, and so forth, the free
software is a better choice since you get the source code.  Think of
source availability as an extra feature.

>> If a topic is of general interest to PLUG members (collectively or
>> individually), I have no problem with it being discussed on PLUG, up to
>> and including the Muromachi period of Japan.  If this happens, I'll
>> brush up on procmail recipes.
>
>Technology is no substitute for manners.

Could you clarify this?  I agree with your statement as it stands by
itself, but there is a leap from my statement to your reply that I'm
just not seeing.  Are you referring to the need for politeness even
though one can just killfile a thread?

>Actually, I don't pay anything for them.  My company pays for them.  My
>company, in turn, pays for me to become knowledgable about Microsoft
>products.  In short, it's my job to say "no, that will cause the
>instructor's computer to explode and kill 3 students that may not have
>paid yet."

:)

If I may be so bold, what is it that you do at your job?  Do you do
training?  Provide support and/or planning for those who do?  Work for
clients?

>They've been around the block.  They know there's not such thing as the
>One True System.

"All operating systems suck, some just suck less than others."  :)

I could relate a couple of third-party anecdotes about Linux users being
insulted by Microsoft bigots (referring to those individuals only, and
not people with an association with Microsoft in general, of course),
but such male-genital waggling seems hardly productive or necessary at
this point.  Suffice it to say, I believe I hear you saying that you
observe this behavior much more often among Linux users/community than
with other OSs?

>I have no idea.  You might want to post the question outside this thread,
>in case we're being ignored by someone who can answer it.

Don't want to get flamed for being off-topic.  :)  (Please don't take
that sentence too seriously. <g>)

>Counter-point:  if I recall, on the first go, Red Hat didn't respond.  On
>the second go around, it was a somewhat fairer test.  I think a good
>ripost would be for Red Hat, Linuxcare, or some other segment on the Linux
>community with the clout, to initiate their own bakeoff.

That's great.  I wonder why they haven't done it yet.

Reminds me a bit, too, of the Hack PC Week contest...

>Also, the Linux community isn't completely righteous here, either.  Linux
>Magazine ran an item on the Mindscape tests.  They made a big deal about
>the first test, but just swept the second test under the carpet.

I wasn't aware of this.  I read those type of magazines (print or
on-line) rather frequently.

>I think the crux of our disagreement is that I'm looking at what I think
>the *intent* of the list is, and you're looking at the letter.
...
>I think we need to temper "of interest" with "good for Linux".

It's sometimes easy (for me, anyway) to lose sight of the fact that the
list address expands to over 200 addresses when you only see maybe a
score of people posting regularly.

As for the list topic, I suspect it's intentionally vague, and for good
reason.  I simply took it at face value, but therein lies the danger.  
:)  Anyhow, the Japanese art period examples we were using were over the
top, but...

Anyway, I hope I haven't alienated you.  You are an outstanding debater,
IMO, and you're sharpening me.  I'm sorry to have caused you so much
grief.

Bill
-- 
"I couldn't give him advice in business and he couldn't give me
advice in technology." --Linus Torvalds, about why he wouldn't
be interested in meeting Bill Gates
Harry Browne for President:      http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
Stop abusive software patents!   http://www.noamazon.com/
Visit me at                      http://www.netaxs.com/~bj/


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