Re: [PLUG] apt-get / rpm freshmeat article

[mg <mg@infinity.stf.org>]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Michael W. Ryan wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, mg wrote:
> 
> > The logical end of this path is windows-like environment where
> > plaintext config files are gone and flashy frontends and wizards are the
> > only way to get something done. As LeRoy pointed out this is just fine
> > until you need to do something that the frontend never though anyone would
> > ever have to do.
> 
> Umm... if you build a graphical fronteend to something, that doesn't
> eliminate the under-lying config file.  A well-written frontend will deal
> with direct changes to the config file.
> 
No, of course it doesn't. I should clarify what I meant. As frontends get
more and more popular the underlying configuration structures evolve
towards something more easily maintained by a piece of software and less
easily by a human. The windows registry is a good example of this. Sure
you could hack up the registry by hand but it would be a real
headache. That's the point I was getting at. 


> > It also keeps the user from really learning how things
> > work. I have gained an invaluable amount of knowledge from having to dig
> > through config files and man pages in order to get things done. I think
> > back and wonder if I would have gained the same knowledge if all of the
> > nice frontends to things that exist today existed back when I started
> > learning linux. I dont think I would have. I might know how to get things
> > done but I dont think I would have the intimate knowledge of various
> > pieces of software (or even protocols) that I do now. 
> > 
> > That being said, I realize that there are many people these days using
> > linux who dont want or need to learn every nook and cranny of the
> > system.
> 
> Actually, it's more a matter of there are people that are interested in
> using Linux to do real work.  When you need to use a system for real work,
> you are most interested in learning about those facets that are pertinent
> to the work you are trying to accomplish.

Agreed.

> 
> > That's fine but as LeRoy also pointed out this leads to an
> > insecure machine. This is a problem that lies with the distribution in my
> > opinion but that's a whole new issue. 
> 
> You know, this attitude kind of offends me (hey, I haven't gotten offended
> here for a while; I'm entitled).  And no, MG and LeRoy, I don't mean you
> two specifically.  There seems to be this elitist attitude that if you use
> primarily package-managed systems (especially if they're Red Hat based),
> that you don't understand your system or that it's inherently insecure.
> As someone who uses Red Hat derived distributions (Red Hat and Mandrake),
> especially a Mandrake system for a corporate firewall, I find this
> insulting.  I know what my system's insecurities are (not 100%, I'm due to
> graze Mandrake's update page to update packages, but you get the point).
> 
> The point of a package-managed system that frequently gets overlooked is
> to give you a functional system with minimal work.

Absolutely. I never said or even implied that those who use
package-managed systems dont understand their systems. Package managers
are a good thing. I was sort of getting off on another issue and that's
why I didn't pursue that line of though furthur. What I meant by an
insecure system is how most distributions default to running just about
every service out there. Like you said, some people just want to get some
real work done and only want to deal with things that are relevant to
their goals. Stopping those services is a bit time consuming for users of
this nature. First you have you figure out what some service is, decide
whether you need, then figure out how to turn it off. Add to that the fact
that some daemons arent started by inetd and its a pain if you've never
done it before. I in no way meant to offend you and if I did I'm very
sorry. It was absolutely not my intention. 

Finally, I didn't mean to pass judgement on any particular way of using
linux. If you prefer to use gui tools exclusively thats just fine or if
you're a commandline junky that's also fine. I happen to fall somewhere in
the middle.  I was just sharing my thoughts on how the linux experience
has changed over the last couple of years and the road it may take in the
future.

mg


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