Bob Schwier on Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:11:26 -0400


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Re: tangent warning. was: Re: [PLUG] .directory files


Point taken.
I prefer a command set that I can deal with from a keyboard.  My wife is
dyslexic and actually requires a GUI to use these damned things.
bs


On 26 Sep 2002, Mental Patient wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 22:11, gabriel rosenkoetter wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 25, 2002 at 07:51:38PM -0400, Ian Reinhart Geiser wrote:
> > > This is because of a small oversight on the FS designers not to allow for 
> > > metadata in the filesystem.
> > 
> > Pshaw. There's plenty of room for metadata in the FS. It just so
> > happens it's used for storing little things like file modification
> > times and such. You know, nothing so important as an icon's
> > position.
> > 
> > ::sigh::
> 
> Extreme l33tness aside, there is absolutely a place for graphical
> interfaces. In fact, if it weren't for the often maligned 'GUI',
> computers would be nothing more than an interest of introverts and
> geeks. You're falling into a dangerous mindset. Just because _you_ don't
> personally use something, or like it, doesnt mean it has no place on a
> 'real' computer. There are tons of reasons for a GUI. One of which is
> the thing the masses crave most. Transforming a computing device into an
> appliance. Why should I know 10 different commands to move stuff around
> a filesystem? The learning curve is prohibitive and all I want to do is
> rearange my mp3's. A mouse can (and has) replaced dozens of commands for
> the desktop user. This allows them to get on with the real objective.
> Getting their work done with minimal fuss (for them) and without having
> to learn a myriad of commands/switches. How then, is this bad for them?
> 
> The hatred for the GUI shown by the 'hardcore' self proclaimed 'real
> unix' users disgusts me. Just because a particular application isnt
> useful to an admin or a kernel hacker, doesnt mean it has no merit. Not
> everyone _wants_ to be an admin. Some people just want to send digital
> pictures to their family, or play a game. Others, myself included, feel
> that the desktop should be aestheticly pleasing as well as functional.
> Isn't this why I've seen such a swell of interest in OS X in the *nix
> crowd? A nice interface, combined with a powerful commandline is a
> wonderful thing.
> 
> As a recovering unix admin, the disrespect shown for those not technical
> or those who perhaps just want to use their computer as an appliance to
> meet their needs, rather than spending all their time learning things
> that in their minds have nothing to do with the task at hand only serves
> to reinforce my decision to get out of the digital janitor business. I
> suppose this topic has been beat to death. Its just a shame to see this
> attitude on this list. 
> 
> It makes new users feel inferior and appologetic. Arguing the
> superiority of the commandline vs the GUI is absurd. There is a reason
> we have both. 
> 
> Imagine an embeded system powered by linux, but not 'dirtied' by the
> baseness of a graphical interface.
> 
> You walk into Wawa to get a sandwich. You're confronted by a terminal
> with a dollar sign and a blinking bar. The keyboard looks disused.
> There's nobody around so you.....
> 
>  sandwich
> -bash: sandwich: command not found
>  order
> -bash: order: command not found
>  help
> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (i386-pc-linux-gnu)
> These shell commands are defined internally.  Type `help' to see this
> list.
> Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'.
> Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general.
> Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list.
> 
> A star (*) next to a name means that the command is disabled.
> 
>  %[DIGITS | WORD] [&]               (( expression ))
>  . filename                         :
>  [ arg... ]                         [[ expression ]]
>  alias [-p] [name[=value] ... ]     bg [job_spec]
>  bind [-lpvsPVS] [-m keymap] [-f fi break [n]
>  builtin [shell-builtin [arg ...]]  case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN].
>  cd [-L|-P] [dir]                   command [-pVv] command [arg ...]
>  compgen [-abcdefgjksuv] [-o option complete [-abcdefgjksuv] [-pr] [-o
>  continue [n]                       declare [-afFirtx] [-p] name[=valu
>  dirs [-clpv] [+N] [-N]             disown [-h] [-ar] [jobspec ...]
>  echo [-neE] [arg ...]              enable [-pnds] [-a] [-f filename] 
>  eval [arg ...]                     exec [-cl] [-a name] file [redirec
>  exit [n]                           export [-nf] [name[=value] ...] or
>  false                              fc [-e ename] [-nlr] [first] [last
>  fg [job_spec]                      for NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do COMMA
>  for (( exp1; exp2; exp3 )); do COM function NAME { COMMANDS ; } or NA
>  getopts optstring name [arg]       hash [-lr] [-p pathname] [-dt] [na
>  help [-s] [pattern ...]            history [-c] [-d offset] [n] or hi
>  if COMMANDS; then COMMANDS; [ elif jobs [-lnprs] [jobspec ...] or job
>  kill [-s sigspec | -n signum | -si let arg [arg ...]
>  local name[=value] ...             logout
>  popd [+N | -N] [-n]                printf format [arguments]
>  pushd [dir | +N | -N] [-n]         pwd [-PL]
>  read [-ers] [-u fd] [-t timeout] [ readonly [-anf] [name[=value] ...]
>  return [n]                         select NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do CO
>  set [--abefhkmnptuvxBCHP] [-o opti shift [n]
>  shopt [-pqsu] [-o long-option] opt source filename
>  suspend [-f]                       test [expr]
>  time [-p] PIPELINE                 times
>  trap [arg] [signal_spec ...] or tr true
>  type [-afptP] name [name ...]      typeset [-afFirtx] [-p] name[=valu
>  ulimit [-SHacdflmnpstuv] [limit]   umask [-p] [-S] [mode]
>  unalias [-a] [name ...]            unset [-f] [-v] [name ...]
>  until COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done  variables - Some variable names an
>  wait [n]                           while COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done
>  { COMMANDS ; }                    
> 
> 
> So you leave and go to Subway instead. 
> 
> You get the idea. Yes, the argument is absurd. But not by much. Who
> cares if your sandwich ordering system has an uptime of 500 days and you
> can remotely admin 1000 of them from your bedroom if nobody can _use_
> them? Usability matters. The definition of usability changes dramaticly
> based on the user.
> 
> 
> So yes, its a free country (sort of). And not everyone will agree on
> things. But why tear things down for no reason? Its not like nobody on
> this lists respects you for the knowlege you have. 
> 
> I for one, appreciate a decent GUI for day to day tasks. I do not feel
> this lessens my abilities. When the GUI doesnt do what I need, I'm fully
> capable of using and appreciate my Eterm. That said, there are times the
> CLI isn't the right answer. 
> 
> I guess I should just save my breath. This isn't getting me anywhere.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Mental (Mental@NeverLight.com)
> 
> This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that 
> I am not alone in
> This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal
> All this pain is an illusion.
> 
> --Tool "Parabola"
> 
> CARPE NOCTEM, QUAM MINIMUM CREDULA POSTERO.
> 
> GPG public key: http://www.neverlight.com/pas/Mental.asc
> 
> 
> 

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