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Please excuse the heavy quoting?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred K Ollinger" <follinge@sas.upenn.edu>
-snip
> > I hadn't decided on a distribution yet...RH 8.0 I was thinking, but
maybe
> > that is too much, especially if I am using an older machine?
I am running RH8 on old HP workstations, PII-266 and PII300,333s. 256MB RAM
or better plus big 80GB ID disks and CDRW drives. The built-in USB works
fine as well.
> Why would that be?
>
> A distro is just a set of precompiled binaries and (usually) a pretty,
> branded installer.
I agree, RH8 is the best attempt yet by Redhat to make the install a smooth
process. Not only has the new install been redone to look cleaner but steps
and choices are more logically laid out than in the early days.
> The installer might be too much of a hog to run on a really old system,
> but rh8 does have a fallback to console only mode.
That is correct. I have had to use text mode to setup RH8 on an old system
(P200 or 133 I think) whose on board video was not very compatible for some
reason.
> Once you install linux, you can recompile kernel and packages that you
> need. All linux distros that I've ever seen can boot to console only mode
> as well.
Absolutely. On RH8 boxes that will be dedicated servers, I do not even
install Xwindows and disable any daemon not needed once the system is up and
on its feet.
> There are downsides to each and every distro. rh has fewer downsides than
> most as they are the biggie in the linux game. However, if one is picky:
>
> 1. Too many packages installed by default. No matter what I tell the
> installer, it crams my hard disk full of things that I don't need. Each
> thing sucks up disk space, clutters up the system, and opens up security
> holes (especially where you are giving untrusted users console access).
> These can be uninstalled (sort of) but this leads to the second problem.
Yes. Portmap and other things (X Font Server) not really needed are
installed by default. It is due to the dependecy checking being overly
paranoid I think. Some things like vlock should be installed but are not by
default, for what reason again, I am unsure. This however is only a small
issue that one chkconfig command can disable and rpm comand can delete and
uninstall. I guess if you find certain stuff to always be on that delete
list you could write a quick shell script.
> 2. annoying package manager. up2date seems to me, to be a last ditch
> attempt to suck money out of my pocket. the registration is really a pain
> in the ass especially if you want to have this installed on a bunch of
> machines. If anyone knows how to install rh w/o registering, please let me
> know.
Hmmm... You do not have to register the RH8 box, ever. You do if you want
up2date to work. Redhat gives you a basic subscription to one system per a
login name for free. For places that have three or more RH boxes it actually
is a great value to let the Redhat Network service (the rhn daemon on the RH
system will periodically check with Redhat network to see if there are
updates it needs to be secure) figure out what must have updates should be
installed. Could you disregard up2date and install new or updated rpms
yourself? Yes. I teach people I install servers for how to use it because
that is the type of user it s designed for. Up2date is commandline
scriptable as well.
Also check out apt4rpm which basically acomplishes the same things for you.
It also works just like the apt-get system for all my Debian friends out
there. http://freshrpms.net/apt/ So... you can apt-get and never have to
deal with Redhat's up2date package manager if you do not want to.
> I know that you don't have to pay, but then they treat you like a second
> class citizen, and I don't know an easy/stable way to set up one's own
> mirror.
Hmmm... I have not been treated badly by their tech support but then again,
what do you expect for free? If you are paying for the support (ala' their
business model) then they are quick to help you. Yes. I remember seeing
something about setting up a local up2date mirror for shops that have a
large number of systems. I would most likely go with apt4rpm before going
that route however.
> rh does pay some great developers (Alan Cox), but they still are trying to
> get paid for something that I can get for free (including a distro).
True. I love being able to download the ISOs for the latest stable Redhat
and have the power of a well working Linux at my command. Check out some of
their high end stuff though. Clustering and 64bit database systems built on
Redhat... some of it is really great for the Linux community. Being honest,
some shops do not have the talent and/or time to figure out how to piece
together a Linux distro that can do all that plus support it to other shops
when something decides it is not going to work for some resaon.
> 3. no known way that up2date can upgrade you to the next distro: 6.0->7.0
> w/o downloading media (there is floppy net upgrade, IMHO, which is nice).
> This means that you are going to have to sit in front of the actual
> machine and reboot it at least once.
Yep. Up2date is meant to keep a Redhat install -- up to date. In an example
of RH7.3 to RH8 there is not much of an upgrade in terms of server use. RH8
is mostly and upgrade of userland stuff.
> The redhat installer is really pretty and there are lots of rh packages
> out there. Most commercial software targets rh. But if you want
> commercial, you need to think about if you really want linux in the first
> place. Maybe solaris would be a better fit.
Yes, and if you are paying for support then Sun is the way to go. I like the
Linux way since I do not have to stick with Sun hardware which can be very
expensive. Sure their servers really rock, but for a workstation? Yes, I
know, reliability, blah, blah, blah. I think many people do not have a
hardware clue because I do not usually have any stability issues that are
hardware related. I just don't. Even on the Win32 system I maintain. An
actual hardware or server code related crash is rare -- like many one in 50
per a year. (Before anyone else chimes in about that, I have users running
crappily written software memory leak a workstation into the ground daily.
That is not the Operating Systems fault. Win32 or Linux.)
> A advocate debian (www.debian.org) b/c they are commited to completely
> free software--not: we like free software, now pay us for shininess. Yes
> there are free rh downloads of all iso and they do pay really great
> developers to make linux better for everyone.
Hey, I love Debian too. I miss working on a recompiled Debian system, so
quick on its feet, so efficient, so -- well great! However, I maintain
systems for others and they want a way of supporting the boxes should I ever
move on to something else. Redhat was a natural choice. Sure, I could have
went with Suse, Caldera or Turbo Linux but none of them are east coast local
(Redhat is in North Carolina). Suse is european, who knows what Caldera is
doing since its volution (or something like that) thing tanked -- didn't
they buy SCO Unix as well and Turbo Linux is Asian. Then there was the
certification thing and well... I just like the Red thing. Check out my
blog, "My Red Machine" at http://kamsalisbury.com/blogger/blogger.html
> Debian is not hard to setup a console only system. If you know enough to
> setup a linux server at all then you'll know the answers to all the
> questions anyway.
I agree. Again, if you want a highly tuned, slimmed down box then Debian is
the way to go.
> There are net install floppies available for all the major filesystems,
> including jfs, reiserfs, xfs, and ext3.
Gosh I love that. Linux in my pocket. NetBSD does that too. And you can even
setup your own net install mirror so you can net install at a full 100Mbit
switched on your local network. Very cool indeed.
> There is a system (jigdo) to make bootable installer cds of all the
> releases (including sid). I think that a full distro is about 8 cds full
> of software.
You can also go to http://linuxiso.org for downloadable ISO images. Redhat
also provides the ISO images via FTP as well on most big mirrors so be sure
to pick one close to you?
> Good luck,
>
> Fred
Fare thee well.
Kam.
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