| William H. Magill on Thu, 1 May 2003 17:33:10 -0400 |
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On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 09:23 AM, Edmund Goppelt wrote: I'd like to ask for this list's help explaining to a Philly judge that the data for City's property tax web site is ultimately stored on a hard disk somewhere. There are several issues here. And Gabe has probably got the answers right. The primary questions are -- what "computer disk" is the "other data" stored on? ...the data which they CAN provide in ASCII form, and how did it get there? The fact is, NONE of the data resides "on a computer disk," but rather it all resides in some database someplace, nominally on the "BRT servers," which may or may not be "a mainframe." My guess is that the "computer disk" the Lawyer is referring to is in fact some drone's PC... (where a copy most likely resides "illegally" in the first place.) [[After all, the only thing "they" can burn a CD from is a PC, right? :)] So, How did it get there? The "drone" has an extraction program that was written by someone else to write the file to their PC on some periodic basis. The drone has zero knowledge of computers. And even less about the database information (aka the BRT server). All that they are capable of doing is running some script (bat/exe, whatever) that somebody else wrote for them. So where does that leave us. First off, the Lawyer is in way over his/her head. They are flat out lying, but they don't know it. "There is a file that is known EQID that rests on the mainframe and contains only the BRT account number and the EQID number for residential properties. This data file does not exist on a disk." To say that the data is not "available on a disk" but is available from a web query is to say that some drone gets your query, looks up the information on paper and types in the missing data -- clearly not what is happening. Nominally, the only way to deal with the problem is to find out if the Judge will accept testimony of an expert Witness on the issue. Depending on how "politically correct" the Judge is being, they won't. But that is essentially the only way you can get the issue resolved. The real problem you are facing is that of the American Legal System. You must realize that Justice has nothing to do with the system; it is purely a technical system. That is quite obvious in reading the brief. The Lawyer has been told that his/her position is to oppose the request on whatever LEGAL grounds are available -- NOT COMPUTER TECHNICAL. On the last point -- "The BRT cannot produce documents which do not exist." I love this one. I don't doubt that the BRT does NOT have the documents you are asking for. The idea that a vendor would supply documentation to a customer is quite novel in the computer business, Especially, in the Government space. It is a topic talked about, but rarely ever implemented. In 30 years in the business, I've only ever heard "guest speakers" describe how such documents are "supposed" to be part of "your contract." (To protect you if the vendor goes belly-up if nothing else.) But I have never seen them in reality. At best, there might be a design document which describes what people thought they wanted long before any contract was drawn up. The only "documentation" which exists is some end user "how to use this program" type stuff. Sadly it is still standard Industry practice (amplified by the Open Source movement and "security documentation" issues) the only valid documentation is the Source Code... which is undoubtedly "proprietary" and belongs to CAMA. The BRT does not have it, even though they should. ... And if you bother to read what you call the "contract" with MBN, there are no "deliverables" listed in that document ... let alone a documentation requirement. And those 7 pages contain the ENTIRE set of terms! Also, whatever that document is, it is essentially worthless... it is NOT a signed (and therefore enforceable) contract. It may, or may not, represent any arrangement between the City and MBN. (And it is only a "proposal" document anyway.) You are faced with a situation where the City does not want to provide you something and is using legal technicalities to avoid it. And sadly, the City can use terms like "computer disk" to mean whatever they want them to mean. YOU have to define explicitly what it is that you want from them. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill # Beige G3 - Rev A motherboard - 768 Meg # Flat-panel iMac (2.1) 800MHz - Super Drive - 768 Meg # PWS433a [Alpha 21164 Rev 7.2 (EV56)- 64 Meg]- Tru64 5.1a magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com _________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.netisland.net/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.netisland.net/mailman/listinfo/plug
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