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Re: [PLUG] City Lawyer: We Don't Store Data on Hard Disk
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On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 07:57:57PM -0400, Barry Roomberg wrote:
>
> You got stomped.
The City lawyer told a series of falsehoods that are obvious to anyone
who knows anything about computers. Do I feel stomped? No. Do I feel
angry that the City didn't even bother to concoct a halfway plausible
lie?
Absolutely.
> To focus on the "not on disk" is a worthless exercise. A
> distraction. Even if the data is on disk, who cares? So
> the lawyer made a minor technical mistake. That does NOT
> get you your desired data, merely an smarmy apology as they
> display the next barrier.
Ok, so what do you think we should be concentrating on in Court?
> Let's say the app that gathers with data really queries several
> systems, including a SQL based system and a MF based lookup system.
Why assume? Information about the BRT's computer systems is a matter
of public record. The BRT is in the midst of a transition from a
Mainframe/VSAM environment to Oracle. According to public records,
the BRT currently maintains its property file on both the mainframe as
well as an Oracle 9i database with a web front end:
http://www.hallwatch.org/rtkasuits/suits/brt/brtweb
> And that system agregates the data as you now see it on the web.
>
> What makes you think:
> 1) Anyone in that office has a CLUE of how it works?
> 2) You have the right to cause them to go through any
> effort beyond what they already have done?
Good questions, so let me attempt to answer them:
1. I think you are seriously underestimating the competence of the
City's computer staff. I've been dealing with the BRT for over a year
so I've had chance to form an opinion about the people I deal
with--mainly the top managers. IMO, the DP Supervisor, like all the
other BRT managers I have dealt with, is both competent and
intelligent.
Were you aware that the City uses Linux? Check out this photo taken at
the BRT's offices at 34 S. 11th St.:
http://www.hallwatch.org/rtkasuits/suits/brt/cama/brt_closet_cama.jpg
2. The BRT will currently provide any member of the public who can
pony up $100 with a CD with their property file on it. The file
consists of 73 fields. How much more work could including the two
additional fields possibly be?
> They already present the information. On the web.
> You really want it? Spider it. Not a big deal.
If I lose the suit, I will "spider" the information. But there is a
larger issue here. Is it reasonable to expect the City to be honest
about what it can and cannot do with its computer systems? I think it
is.
> Based on the "few minutes" quoted you lost any hope of credibility.
>
> Have you ever tried to insert your personal code in a hardcoded
> mainframe middleware transaction? It is not pretty. Just because
> it ends up on the web site does NOT mean it is SQL accessable.
> How many of your "experts" ever wrote COBOL code to access VSAM
> files using a MF 3270 session in an old MVS environment.
> None.
>
> Not a one.
I take it you have some experience with Cobol and mainframes. Would
you mind telling me what it is?
I don't know Cobol myself, but I have requested public records from
City Departments which use Cobol. My sense is that it doesn't take them
long at all. For example, I recently asked a programmer at the
Revenue Dept. to provide me with the list of real estate tax
delinquents. He was able to ftp me the requested records from the
mainframe the same day. FWIW, the Revenue Dept. runs their real
estate database on DB2 and Cobol.
As far as the people who wrote affidavits not knowing Cobol, you are
incorrect. At least one of them did know Cobol. Here's what plug
member Chris Mann wrote me recently:
>>Hi Ed,
>>I just got done reading the response to our affidavits. I'm pretty
>>disgusted by the city at this point. My affidavit is in the mail. And
>>VSAM files on a cobol system are fairly easily excessable. Hell, 10
>>years since I wrote my last cobol program, and I'm sure I could come up
>>with a quick query statement for that as well. The city is full of it.
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 07:57:57PM -0400, Barry Roomberg wrote:
> It MIGHT be tape along with a pure memory cache holding it.
> Unlikely, but possible.
How unlikely in your view? How many web sites of this sort have you seen?
> Or, it is a matter of terminology. Mainframes don't have disks,
> mainframes have DASD. As the master said, "It depends on what you
> mean by 'it'"
I'm not a lawyer, but my sense, having filed four of these open
records suits, is that most judges would not look kindly on this kind
of game playing.
> Do you have areal implementation spec of that web site? And are you sure
> it was followed?
Yes. You can read the City's contract with the web site vendor here:
http://www.hallwatch.org/rtkasuits/suits/brt/brtweb/mbncontract_ammended
Whether the contract was followed is unknown at this point. The City
lawyer promised the Judge she would find out.
> Do you REALLY know the data is SQL accessible, or are you guessing?
See the contract. It specifies Oracle 9i.
> Are you willing to fund the city employees to spec out the program,
> design, write, test, qc, test some more? I doubt you could even figure out
Yes, provided they don't inflate their true cost and give me an
estimate beforehand.
> how to login and use the editor, let alone write, compile, and run a
> program in under a couple of weeks. Should they allow you educational
> access to their critical systems?
I'm not asking for an education, merely that the City supply me with
public records either on CD or by ftp.
> Are you willing to pay the CPU charges for the system access?
Absolutely. I have paid such charges to the Records Dept. They were
minimal: a couple of seconds of CPU time at 15 cents a second.
> Even if you were, would it be legal to take your money and provide
> this service to you, as opposed to everyone else?
It's what the law requires, IMO.
> Do you REALLY think they would give you access to their MF to write
> a program to extract it, ever?
No, nor should they. It's their computer and it is up to them, not
me, to provide public records on request.
> These guys can stonewall you for years.
Perhaps. The Records Dept. tried to do this recently but caved after
City Council threatened to defund them:
http://www.hallwatch.org/rtkasuits/news/1050929197213
> It does not matter. It'll just piss the judge off. It does count
> againt the central question and the law that the city must follow.
You seem quite knowledgeable about the Law. May I ask what your legal
background is?
Barry, thank you for your comments. You may well be right about the
disk being a side issue. The important thing for me is that the City
come clean about just how easy or hard it is for them to provide the
public with copies of public records stored on their computers.
--
Ed Goppelt
http://www.hallwatch.org
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