| Jim Fisher on 17 May 2019 03:13:47 -0700 |
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| Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup |
New Jersey is connected to the MontcoMESH and more will be coming as the network(s) expand. If interested join the MontcoMESH maling list.... If you want to stay up-to-date on the happenings, send an email to: MCARMESH+subscribe@groups.io Please put your callsign and name in the email. On 5/17/19, John Kreno <john.kreno@gmail.com> wrote: > Adam, > > That is super cool, Extremely exciting. I'm unfortunately across the river > in New Jersey. But that is very cool. > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Adam Schaible <plug@schibes.com> wrote: > >> An AREDN mesh ham radio data network is being built right now across all >> of Montgomery County, Jim Fisher (who has posted earlier in this thread) >> is >> one of the lead volunteers aiding its construction and testing. >> https://groups.io/g/aa3e/message/1994 >> >> -- >> Adam Schaible >> plug@schibes.com >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2019, at 00:47, John Kreno wrote: >> >> Yes, I'd be interested in getting some support in the area to build a >> network. To my knowledge that is something that the philadelphia area >> does >> not have, a high speed amateur radio data network. >> >> -John >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:38 AM Keith C. Perry < >> kperry@daotechnologies.com> wrote: >> >> Ahhh, ok. Thanks for that. >> >> The HSMM (http://www.arrl.org/high-speed-digital-topics) / AREDN ( >> https://www.arednmesh.org/) stuff is interesting. >> >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >> www.daotechnologies.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >> *Sent: *Friday, May 17, 2019 12:02:24 AM >> *Subject: *Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >> >> Keith, >> I was referring to this >> https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio , but your link >> is also very interesting. >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:51 PM Keith C. Perry < >> kperry@daotechnologies.com> wrote: >> >> Adam... thanks for the info on D-Star's patent. I wonder is that's what >> enabled the integration we're seeing via the radio hot spots. >> John... Are you talking about TARPN ( >> http://tarpn.net/t/packet_radio_networking.html) ? >> >> Also, the Chattervox stuff that Jon mentioned earlier sounds interesting >> too https://github.com/brannondorsey/chattervox >> >> Great points in your last paragraph. While internet and other networking >> technologies are great, the raw potential of using radio signals for >> dynamic communications infrastructure keeps me playing and pushing the >> limits of what I can do with what I have. >> >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >> www.daotechnologies.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >> *Sent: *Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:46:59 PM >> *Subject: *Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >> >> Adam, >> >> I guess I'm with the crowd that would call the AMBE vocoder encryption >> because of it's proprietary and closed nature. If your argument is that >> nothing else existed, then either you wait or someone innovates. You >> don't >> just take something that is arguably not suitable and push it. I think it >> was a fairly obvious push by Icom to try and lock people into a single >> vendor. Now with the dongles that are available and the other devices, >> any >> radio can use it. It still doesn't feel right to me. But that is my >> opinion >> only. >> >> Keith, >> >> It does sound similar. I checked out the DVMEGA Cast, and I would >> certainly be way more willing to sink some money into that than, like you >> say, a one trick pony HT or even a mobile rig. I think that the Yaesu >> thing >> is an attempt to gain market share by dropping prices to incredible lows >> (At least by comparison). It's kind of a dirty move also. I agree on >> Flex, >> they do make decent gear. >> >> I think that the prospect of digital voice is interesting, but things >> like >> echolink had been around and gave you the ability to either talk to folks >> beyond the repeater or internet link repeaters without digital voice at >> the >> RF end. >> >> My interest in digital modes is more in the way of digital data. There >> was >> something fairly recent about a higher speed version of packet called >> like >> "New Packet Radio", and that definitely interests me. If we just want to >> chat, the internet has facilities to chat voice or otherwise. I think >> that >> the main draw of HAM radio is the thought that there really isn't any >> traditional infrastructure between the parties communicating. >> >> At some point with the digital vocoders and the internet interconnection, >> the ham "network" at VHF/UHF frequencies becomes basically a cell network >> voice chat. I'm not sure how you end up figuring out how to carve up the >> bandwidth evenly for all RF end users. I mean surely for the most part we >> have the opposite problem right now, too much unused spectrum. But maybe >> this is a good evolution of this platform. I mean the internet itself is >> fault tolerant to a degree, a few odd fiber runs aside. I don't want to >> be >> received as someone who would rather the hobby stand still, that's not at >> all what I would like. I just would like to see it not lose what I think >> makes it special. And to me it's the HAMs themsevles, the tinkerers, the >> engineers. The folks who are exploring communication and at the core of >> it >> all RF theory and practical application. >> >> I will definitely reach out to you at some point off thread. Thanks >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 7:42 PM Keith C. Perry <kperry@daotechnologies.com> >> wrote: >> >> John, >> >> Your journey seems close to mine. I've been licensed for over 20 years >> as >> well and didn't upgrade until 2017 because I had no longer had interest >> (or >> time) to learn morse code. SDR very much interests me and as I said >> earlier, I refuse to drop any major coin on HT's that are 1 trick ponies >> (as a far as digital). They only recently became dual banders so we have >> a >> long way to go. I was just listening to some guys talk about this very >> thing- where's my SDR HT that can do it all? We have SDR HF rigs so what >> the hold up? Those are good questions and I have not heard a good >> answer. >> >> That said, I would highly recommend this DV Mega Cast. It is a bit >> quirky >> (nothing major) but it allows me to hit all the popular digital modes so >> I >> can understand what going on with that. Two particular advantages of >> using >> this or any other hotspot is that you don't have to deal with DMR or >> D-Star >> radio programming. Most of the programming software does not run on >> Linux >> so it was a no go for me. D-Star and Fusion (C4FM) while not open source >> have been reverse engineered so XREF and DCS reflectors are alternative >> to >> the official REF ones like YSF and FCS rooms are alternatives to the >> official Fusion ones. I agree that there should be more openess in this >> regard but ham enthusiasm to create those alternatives is probably what >> has >> kept Fusion and D-Star viable at all. DMR is waaaaaaaay out ahead in >> terms >> of adoption and that is because its open. Hopefully those vendors have >> gotten the message. For what its worth, I think Yaseu might have since >> they are are pricing their Fusion capable radios pretty aggressively. >> >> I do have to say that the "off putting" of digital has become more >> tempered for me since it is trivial to work people beyond the repeater. >> In >> fact, you really get to pick where you want to work. If want to talk to >> people in California, put a call out on that state talkgroup. How about >> Ireland or the UK? Similar deal. It is a different way to think about it >> but its pretty cool to see it in action while we wait for SDR HTs to >> become >> a thing . No one wants to have to drop coin everytime something new >> comes >> up. >> >> If I had any influence, I would ask the people at Flex radio to get on >> this. They know how to do SDR stuff. If Flex can come out with >> something >> that offers all the digital modes with a decent receiver for a not to >> premium price ($500 to $1000) it would move the market. >> >> I'm a beginner with digital modes too but like most hams, I'm happy to >> share what I've learned if you want we can continue the conversation >> off-thread. >> >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >> www.daotechnologies.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >> *Sent: *Thursday, May 16, 2019 6:26:38 PM >> *Subject: *PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >> >> Long time listener, rare caller, love the show. >> >> Im a ham of 20ish years. My main issue with sticking with the hobby is >> finding hams that have similar interests. I want to get more into the SDR >> end of things and amatuer data networks, and I've been doing this at a >> somewhat slow pace. But without a community, and maybe I haven't found >> the >> right folks, it's daunting. I just recently ,within the last few years, >> upgraded to general. I find the state of digital voice modes to be very >> off >> putting, especially in the case of D-Star. They are using a licensed >> vocoder, where it wouldn't have been difficult to just use something >> without licensing and keep it as open/cheap as possible. That having been >> said, I'm not a fusion fanboy either. >> >> Commenting on the all time high licensing of hams, I think that has to do >> with the lowering of requirements and perhaps the increase of the prepper >> crowd's interest in the hobby. But one of the other things that I have >> noticed, is that there are a fair amount of younger folks that are >> interested in experimenting with radio (SDR) that get their tech license >> for VHF/UHF and then never participate in the traditional sense. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 5:40 PM Keith C. Perry <kperry@daotechnologies.com> >> wrote: >> >> "So, I think this was more about the intersection of the PLUG community >> and ham community, which isn't the same as the general ham community. >> I doubt anybody is going to stop attending PLUG meetings or their >> local ham club meetings because they're also participating in this." >> >> Exactly that... Let me expand on my motivation for this. A couple of >> reference points. >> >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/more-than-30-000-new-ham-licensees-and-7-000-amateur-radio-exam-sessions-in-2017 >> >> The last paragraph of that say this, >> >> "The number of Amateur Radio license upgrades was 9,576 in 2017, >> continuing a slight downward trend over the past 10 years." >> >> So, while we getting new members is good, they and other hams are not >> upgrading. They're are lots of reasons for that but lets focus on >> technicians since that is the largest block of licensed hams. Here's one >> idea. >> >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/discover-the-hf-experience-aims-to-dazzle-technicians-newcomers >> >> “Our amateur population is at an all-time high, but most new hams are >> getting a Technician ticket, getting on VHF and UHF, and hanging out with >> like-minded friends,” Hull said. The limitations on what Technician >> licensees can do often leads to boredom, Hull said, “and they drop out of >> the hobby. They never get the exposure to HF ham radio, and as any >> veteran >> radio amateur can tell you, that’s a lifelong exploration.” >> >> I can't count how often I heard things like that and yet when I talk >> about >> going at least up to general class what I've heard is people either don't >> have the space for the antenna(s) and/or the gear or the prices of the >> gear >> is too expensive. The motivation and satisfaction of being able to be >> create your own communication infrastructure and being able to talk up to >> world-wide distances is not there in the same way it was years ago. So >> the >> willingness to get the gear and "sciene it" is gone. However, the desire >> to talk in what I would call beyond-the-repeater is. That's one of the >> reasons why we started linking repeaters because the truth of the matter >> is >> that we're not always doing field day lugging around a mobile shack or >> wanting to be tied to base station. Sometimes you just want to chop it >> up >> with other hams an easy to work mode and band. What digital modes have >> done, particularly on the high bands techs have access too, is allow for >> a >> new phase experimentation in linked systems. In this case technology >> advances have brought this down to the station licensee- you can get a >> single board computer and actually contemplate what we are talking about >> right now without having to be a repeater operator. I'd be the first to >> say that in my book this not playing radio in the traditional sense >> (since >> most of the infrastructure that carries traffic runs over commerical >> lines) >> but so what? A 25 year old ham is not a 50 year old ham is not a 75 year >> old ham. If the merger of technologies inspires newer hams to play in >> the >> hobby, I think they will upgrade. If they like digital modes on UHF/VHF >> over the internet then I think there will be a natural motivation to get >> into the digital modes and other things on HF. >> >> To that point... >> >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/iaru-president-traditional-aspects-of-ham-radio-may-not-be-attractive-to-newcomers >> >> “Our ambition should be to embrace these individuals in their activities >> and accept that some of the more traditional aspects of the hobby will >> hold >> little interest to them, and indeed may no longer be relevant,” he >> continued. “That is not to say that some are not enthused with what we >> all >> hold as the core of our hobby, such as contesting or operating generally. >> I >> fear, though, that we need to look at what will attract the new >> generations >> to Amateur Radio and make sure we promote Amateur Radio as meeting their >> needs, rather than promoting the historical view of what Amateur Radio >> has >> to offer.” >> >> So, here we are. I think what PLUG has to ofter the ham community in >> terms a GOTA (get on the air) effort could be playing in the digital mode >> area. I've been listening to hams on digital talk about some of the >> frustrations of setting of hotspots (and it general how to use this SBCs) >> that we would take for granted in PLUG. While you could (and I think >> should) support local ham radio clubs that have nothing to do with the >> cross pollentation of knowledge or having a place where someone can gain >> confidence learning how to play radio with people they know who [probably >> **grin**] aren't going to take of their heads it they don't do things >> just >> right. >> >> Of course, my thesis could be wrong when applied to PLUG'ers, which is >> why >> I posted to see what others thought. I appreciate the discussion. >> >> Would a general GOTA event or a show and tell (operate) be useful? If >> so, >> from there we could gauge what the interest is in a PLUG room or >> talkgroup. >> >> >> >> ***side thought*** >> >> In the interest of using what is out there. I'll let people know where I >> tend to have my radio parked. Give me a shout when you are feeling >> froggy. I'll respond if I can. >> >> HF (40m / 80m), I tend to work phone regionally (400 to 1000 miles). If >> you want the challenge to trying to make contacts within the skip zone, >> I'm >> happy to oblige. >> >> 2m/70cm >> analog: If anything W3WAN and W3QV since N3KZ is having so many issues >> but usually only when I'm mobile >> (like when I'm on my way to a PLUG meeting) >> >> digital: Fusion: YSF64230 (America-RC), FCS00422 or FCS00285 >> (AmericaRagchewWireX) >> (those are all the same) >> >> DMR(BM): 31360 (Tri-state) but sometimes 3173 (midatlantic) or >> 3172 (northeast) or 91 (worldwide) >> >> D-Star: XREF310A or DCS006B >> >> FYI... D-Star does have pretty low use from what I can hear so I would >> say >> its a good place for longer conversations especially not on the main >> modules (i.e. the letter after the number). For instance, XREF310C and >> XREF310E through XREF310Z are listed as general use and I don't think >> I've >> even seen someone one module G or higher. >> >> >> >> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >> www.daotechnologies.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rich Freeman" <r-plug@thefreemanclan.net> >> To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 8:35:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:27 AM Jim Fisher <jedijf@myfisher.org> wrote: >> > >> > OK. Let's get back to where this started....getting local like-minded >> > folks ON THE AIR. >> > >> >> I thought this was about a place to talk about PLUG/Linux, ideally on >> the air? If you just want to talk on a repeater you can tune into any >> of the local repeaters and key up... >> >> > >> > A private talkgroup or whatever is STUPID. NOT ham radio. >> > IT's AUDIO IRC. >> > >> > JOIN the Ham community. Don't isolate. Join a club. Go to meetings. >> >> So, I think this was more about the intersection of the PLUG community >> and ham community, which isn't the same as the general ham community. >> I doubt anybody is going to stop attending PLUG meetings or their >> local ham club meetings because they're also participating in this. >> >> The problem with just pointing PLUG members to the directory of local >> ham clubs is that they tend to cover different geographies/etc. There >> is likely no repeater which all the PLUG members would all be able to >> use conveniently (at least not which would make sense). >> >> The advantage with starting with an online reflector/group/etc is that >> it immediately covers both the topic (PLUG members) and geography (the >> world). It can then easily be bridged onto repeaters where this makes >> sense, which gets you the OTA access. In the case of a BM DMR >> talkgroup this can be done dynamically by anybody on any BM repeater >> or hotspot. >> >> While I get that this might be perceived as isolationist, I think it >> has the benefit of covering its niche better. I mean, we could all >> talk about PLUG in some general-purpose IRC channel with 50 million >> people on it, but #plug gets used because it is more focused. >> >> I think this is also part of why repeaters/etc are struggling. They >> organize discussion by geography by default, and people prefer to >> organize discussion by topic/interest. If you're interested in PERL >> you would probably prefer to talk with somebody who is also interested >> in PERL in Germany, over somebody who just doesn't see the point in >> writing programs in syntax that resembles line noise who just happens >> to live nearby. (Sorry, Walt, just curious if you've endured my rant >> this long...) >> >> And of course there is no reason we can't do both. Continue to allow >> the ham community to expose the Linux community to ham, and also >> provide a more focused area. >> >> That said, if we don't think the RF adds a lot of benefit another >> option is to just go with an FOSS voice chat protocol (mumble, >> whatever), and then you don't need a patent-encumbered radio or FCC >> license to use it. That would literally be voice IRC, but you >> couldn't bridge it over RF. >> >> -- >> Rich >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> >> >> >> -- >> John Kreno >> >> Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within >> limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add >> 'within >> the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and >> always so when it violates the rights of the individual. >> - Thomas Jefferson >> >> I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and >> hurl rocks at those in the center. >> - Dwight D. Eisenhower >> >> Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal >> motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent >> and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge >> of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His >> blessing >> and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our >> own. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all >> inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish >> our >> children's futures, and we are all mortal. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> >> >> >> -- >> John Kreno >> >> Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within >> limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add >> 'within >> the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and >> always so when it violates the rights of the individual. >> - Thomas Jefferson >> >> I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and >> hurl rocks at those in the center. >> - Dwight D. Eisenhower >> >> Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal >> motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent >> and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge >> of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His >> blessing >> and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our >> own. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all >> inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish >> our >> children's futures, and we are all mortal. >> - John F. Kennedy >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________ >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >> http://www.phillylinux.org >> Announcements - >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >> General Discussion -- >> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >> > > > -- > John Kreno > > Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits > drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the > limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always > so when it violates the rights of the individual. > - Thomas Jefferson > > I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and > hurl rocks at those in the center. > - Dwight D. Eisenhower > > Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal > motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent > and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. > - John F. Kennedy > > With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge > of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing > and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our > own. > - John F. Kennedy > > For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all > inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our > children's futures, and we are all mortal. > - John F. Kennedy > -- jim fisher Jedijf AJ3DI www.aj3di.com/ www.myfisher.org "Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'" -- Jedi Master Yoda ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug