| Jim Fisher on 17 May 2019 03:41:56 -0700 |
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| Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup |
My point, if any, is there is a lot going on if you look. We have outlined enough in this thread. Get on it and start doing. ADD your interests to what exists....expand both. I hope to see folks at Field Day. I will be here: http://www.phil-mont.org/fieldday.html I will have toys to play with. If you have a specific interest, let me know, I was going to limit the crazy amount of stuff I bring. I will have digital voice modes. HF digital. I was not going to bring out all of my sdr stuff, but can if there is interest. Don't be shy...I have a lot of toys.... For me this year....cw is the jawn. 73 On 5/17/19, Jim Fisher <jedijf@myfisher.org> wrote: > New Jersey is connected to the MontcoMESH and more will be coming as > the network(s) expand. > > If interested join the MontcoMESH maling list.... > If you want to stay up-to-date on the happenings, send an email to: > MCARMESH+subscribe@groups.io > > Please put your callsign and name in the email. > > > > On 5/17/19, John Kreno <john.kreno@gmail.com> wrote: >> Adam, >> >> That is super cool, Extremely exciting. I'm unfortunately across the >> river >> in New Jersey. But that is very cool. >> >> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:55 AM Adam Schaible <plug@schibes.com> wrote: >> >>> An AREDN mesh ham radio data network is being built right now across all >>> of Montgomery County, Jim Fisher (who has posted earlier in this thread) >>> is >>> one of the lead volunteers aiding its construction and testing. >>> https://groups.io/g/aa3e/message/1994 >>> >>> -- >>> Adam Schaible >>> plug@schibes.com >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 17, 2019, at 00:47, John Kreno wrote: >>> >>> Yes, I'd be interested in getting some support in the area to build a >>> network. To my knowledge that is something that the philadelphia area >>> does >>> not have, a high speed amateur radio data network. >>> >>> -John >>> >>> On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:38 AM Keith C. Perry < >>> kperry@daotechnologies.com> wrote: >>> >>> Ahhh, ok. Thanks for that. >>> >>> The HSMM (http://www.arrl.org/high-speed-digital-topics) / AREDN ( >>> https://www.arednmesh.org/) stuff is interesting. >>> >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >>> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >>> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >>> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >>> www.daotechnologies.com >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >>> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >>> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >>> *Sent: *Friday, May 17, 2019 12:02:24 AM >>> *Subject: *Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >>> >>> Keith, >>> I was referring to this >>> https://hackaday.io/project/164092-npr-new-packet-radio , but your link >>> is also very interesting. >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:51 PM Keith C. Perry < >>> kperry@daotechnologies.com> wrote: >>> >>> Adam... thanks for the info on D-Star's patent. I wonder is that's >>> what >>> enabled the integration we're seeing via the radio hot spots. >>> John... Are you talking about TARPN ( >>> http://tarpn.net/t/packet_radio_networking.html) ? >>> >>> Also, the Chattervox stuff that Jon mentioned earlier sounds interesting >>> too https://github.com/brannondorsey/chattervox >>> >>> Great points in your last paragraph. While internet and other >>> networking >>> technologies are great, the raw potential of using radio signals for >>> dynamic communications infrastructure keeps me playing and pushing the >>> limits of what I can do with what I have. >>> >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >>> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >>> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >>> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >>> www.daotechnologies.com >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >>> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >>> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >>> *Sent: *Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:46:59 PM >>> *Subject: *Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >>> >>> Adam, >>> >>> I guess I'm with the crowd that would call the AMBE vocoder encryption >>> because of it's proprietary and closed nature. If your argument is that >>> nothing else existed, then either you wait or someone innovates. You >>> don't >>> just take something that is arguably not suitable and push it. I think >>> it >>> was a fairly obvious push by Icom to try and lock people into a single >>> vendor. Now with the dongles that are available and the other devices, >>> any >>> radio can use it. It still doesn't feel right to me. But that is my >>> opinion >>> only. >>> >>> Keith, >>> >>> It does sound similar. I checked out the DVMEGA Cast, and I would >>> certainly be way more willing to sink some money into that than, like >>> you >>> say, a one trick pony HT or even a mobile rig. I think that the Yaesu >>> thing >>> is an attempt to gain market share by dropping prices to incredible lows >>> (At least by comparison). It's kind of a dirty move also. I agree on >>> Flex, >>> they do make decent gear. >>> >>> I think that the prospect of digital voice is interesting, but things >>> like >>> echolink had been around and gave you the ability to either talk to >>> folks >>> beyond the repeater or internet link repeaters without digital voice at >>> the >>> RF end. >>> >>> My interest in digital modes is more in the way of digital data. There >>> was >>> something fairly recent about a higher speed version of packet called >>> like >>> "New Packet Radio", and that definitely interests me. If we just want to >>> chat, the internet has facilities to chat voice or otherwise. I think >>> that >>> the main draw of HAM radio is the thought that there really isn't any >>> traditional infrastructure between the parties communicating. >>> >>> At some point with the digital vocoders and the internet >>> interconnection, >>> the ham "network" at VHF/UHF frequencies becomes basically a cell >>> network >>> voice chat. I'm not sure how you end up figuring out how to carve up the >>> bandwidth evenly for all RF end users. I mean surely for the most part >>> we >>> have the opposite problem right now, too much unused spectrum. But maybe >>> this is a good evolution of this platform. I mean the internet itself is >>> fault tolerant to a degree, a few odd fiber runs aside. I don't want to >>> be >>> received as someone who would rather the hobby stand still, that's not >>> at >>> all what I would like. I just would like to see it not lose what I think >>> makes it special. And to me it's the HAMs themsevles, the tinkerers, the >>> engineers. The folks who are exploring communication and at the core of >>> it >>> all RF theory and practical application. >>> >>> I will definitely reach out to you at some point off thread. Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 7:42 PM Keith C. Perry >>> <kperry@daotechnologies.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> John, >>> >>> Your journey seems close to mine. I've been licensed for over 20 years >>> as >>> well and didn't upgrade until 2017 because I had no longer had interest >>> (or >>> time) to learn morse code. SDR very much interests me and as I said >>> earlier, I refuse to drop any major coin on HT's that are 1 trick ponies >>> (as a far as digital). They only recently became dual banders so we >>> have >>> a >>> long way to go. I was just listening to some guys talk about this very >>> thing- where's my SDR HT that can do it all? We have SDR HF rigs so >>> what >>> the hold up? Those are good questions and I have not heard a good >>> answer. >>> >>> That said, I would highly recommend this DV Mega Cast. It is a bit >>> quirky >>> (nothing major) but it allows me to hit all the popular digital modes so >>> I >>> can understand what going on with that. Two particular advantages of >>> using >>> this or any other hotspot is that you don't have to deal with DMR or >>> D-Star >>> radio programming. Most of the programming software does not run on >>> Linux >>> so it was a no go for me. D-Star and Fusion (C4FM) while not open >>> source >>> have been reverse engineered so XREF and DCS reflectors are alternative >>> to >>> the official REF ones like YSF and FCS rooms are alternatives to the >>> official Fusion ones. I agree that there should be more openess in this >>> regard but ham enthusiasm to create those alternatives is probably what >>> has >>> kept Fusion and D-Star viable at all. DMR is waaaaaaaay out ahead in >>> terms >>> of adoption and that is because its open. Hopefully those vendors have >>> gotten the message. For what its worth, I think Yaseu might have since >>> they are are pricing their Fusion capable radios pretty aggressively. >>> >>> I do have to say that the "off putting" of digital has become more >>> tempered for me since it is trivial to work people beyond the repeater. >>> In >>> fact, you really get to pick where you want to work. If want to talk to >>> people in California, put a call out on that state talkgroup. How about >>> Ireland or the UK? Similar deal. It is a different way to think about >>> it >>> but its pretty cool to see it in action while we wait for SDR HTs to >>> become >>> a thing . No one wants to have to drop coin everytime something new >>> comes >>> up. >>> >>> If I had any influence, I would ask the people at Flex radio to get on >>> this. They know how to do SDR stuff. If Flex can come out with >>> something >>> that offers all the digital modes with a decent receiver for a not to >>> premium price ($500 to $1000) it would move the market. >>> >>> I'm a beginner with digital modes too but like most hams, I'm happy to >>> share what I've learned if you want we can continue the conversation >>> off-thread. >>> >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >>> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >>> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >>> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >>> www.daotechnologies.com >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"John Kreno" <john.kreno@gmail.com> >>> *To: *"Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >>> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >>> *Sent: *Thursday, May 16, 2019 6:26:38 PM >>> *Subject: *PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >>> >>> Long time listener, rare caller, love the show. >>> >>> Im a ham of 20ish years. My main issue with sticking with the hobby is >>> finding hams that have similar interests. I want to get more into the >>> SDR >>> end of things and amatuer data networks, and I've been doing this at a >>> somewhat slow pace. But without a community, and maybe I haven't found >>> the >>> right folks, it's daunting. I just recently ,within the last few years, >>> upgraded to general. I find the state of digital voice modes to be very >>> off >>> putting, especially in the case of D-Star. They are using a licensed >>> vocoder, where it wouldn't have been difficult to just use something >>> without licensing and keep it as open/cheap as possible. That having >>> been >>> said, I'm not a fusion fanboy either. >>> >>> Commenting on the all time high licensing of hams, I think that has to >>> do >>> with the lowering of requirements and perhaps the increase of the >>> prepper >>> crowd's interest in the hobby. But one of the other things that I have >>> noticed, is that there are a fair amount of younger folks that are >>> interested in experimenting with radio (SDR) that get their tech license >>> for VHF/UHF and then never participate in the traditional sense. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 5:40 PM Keith C. Perry >>> <kperry@daotechnologies.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> "So, I think this was more about the intersection of the PLUG community >>> and ham community, which isn't the same as the general ham community. >>> I doubt anybody is going to stop attending PLUG meetings or their >>> local ham club meetings because they're also participating in this." >>> >>> Exactly that... Let me expand on my motivation for this. A couple of >>> reference points. >>> >>> >>> http://www.arrl.org/news/more-than-30-000-new-ham-licensees-and-7-000-amateur-radio-exam-sessions-in-2017 >>> >>> The last paragraph of that say this, >>> >>> "The number of Amateur Radio license upgrades was 9,576 in 2017, >>> continuing a slight downward trend over the past 10 years." >>> >>> So, while we getting new members is good, they and other hams are not >>> upgrading. They're are lots of reasons for that but lets focus on >>> technicians since that is the largest block of licensed hams. Here's >>> one >>> idea. >>> >>> >>> http://www.arrl.org/news/discover-the-hf-experience-aims-to-dazzle-technicians-newcomers >>> >>> “Our amateur population is at an all-time high, but most new hams are >>> getting a Technician ticket, getting on VHF and UHF, and hanging out >>> with >>> like-minded friends,” Hull said. The limitations on what Technician >>> licensees can do often leads to boredom, Hull said, “and they drop out >>> of >>> the hobby. They never get the exposure to HF ham radio, and as any >>> veteran >>> radio amateur can tell you, that’s a lifelong exploration.” >>> >>> I can't count how often I heard things like that and yet when I talk >>> about >>> going at least up to general class what I've heard is people either >>> don't >>> have the space for the antenna(s) and/or the gear or the prices of the >>> gear >>> is too expensive. The motivation and satisfaction of being able to be >>> create your own communication infrastructure and being able to talk up >>> to >>> world-wide distances is not there in the same way it was years ago. So >>> the >>> willingness to get the gear and "sciene it" is gone. However, the >>> desire >>> to talk in what I would call beyond-the-repeater is. That's one of the >>> reasons why we started linking repeaters because the truth of the matter >>> is >>> that we're not always doing field day lugging around a mobile shack or >>> wanting to be tied to base station. Sometimes you just want to chop it >>> up >>> with other hams an easy to work mode and band. What digital modes have >>> done, particularly on the high bands techs have access too, is allow for >>> a >>> new phase experimentation in linked systems. In this case technology >>> advances have brought this down to the station licensee- you can get a >>> single board computer and actually contemplate what we are talking about >>> right now without having to be a repeater operator. I'd be the first to >>> say that in my book this not playing radio in the traditional sense >>> (since >>> most of the infrastructure that carries traffic runs over commerical >>> lines) >>> but so what? A 25 year old ham is not a 50 year old ham is not a 75 >>> year >>> old ham. If the merger of technologies inspires newer hams to play in >>> the >>> hobby, I think they will upgrade. If they like digital modes on UHF/VHF >>> over the internet then I think there will be a natural motivation to get >>> into the digital modes and other things on HF. >>> >>> To that point... >>> >>> >>> http://www.arrl.org/news/iaru-president-traditional-aspects-of-ham-radio-may-not-be-attractive-to-newcomers >>> >>> “Our ambition should be to embrace these individuals in their activities >>> and accept that some of the more traditional aspects of the hobby will >>> hold >>> little interest to them, and indeed may no longer be relevant,” he >>> continued. “That is not to say that some are not enthused with what we >>> all >>> hold as the core of our hobby, such as contesting or operating >>> generally. >>> I >>> fear, though, that we need to look at what will attract the new >>> generations >>> to Amateur Radio and make sure we promote Amateur Radio as meeting their >>> needs, rather than promoting the historical view of what Amateur Radio >>> has >>> to offer.” >>> >>> So, here we are. I think what PLUG has to ofter the ham community in >>> terms a GOTA (get on the air) effort could be playing in the digital >>> mode >>> area. I've been listening to hams on digital talk about some of the >>> frustrations of setting of hotspots (and it general how to use this >>> SBCs) >>> that we would take for granted in PLUG. While you could (and I think >>> should) support local ham radio clubs that have nothing to do with the >>> cross pollentation of knowledge or having a place where someone can gain >>> confidence learning how to play radio with people they know who >>> [probably >>> **grin**] aren't going to take of their heads it they don't do things >>> just >>> right. >>> >>> Of course, my thesis could be wrong when applied to PLUG'ers, which is >>> why >>> I posted to see what others thought. I appreciate the discussion. >>> >>> Would a general GOTA event or a show and tell (operate) be useful? If >>> so, >>> from there we could gauge what the interest is in a PLUG room or >>> talkgroup. >>> >>> >>> >>> ***side thought*** >>> >>> In the interest of using what is out there. I'll let people know where >>> I >>> tend to have my radio parked. Give me a shout when you are feeling >>> froggy. I'll respond if I can. >>> >>> HF (40m / 80m), I tend to work phone regionally (400 to 1000 miles). If >>> you want the challenge to trying to make contacts within the skip zone, >>> I'm >>> happy to oblige. >>> >>> 2m/70cm >>> analog: If anything W3WAN and W3QV since N3KZ is having so many issues >>> but usually only when I'm mobile >>> (like when I'm on my way to a PLUG meeting) >>> >>> digital: Fusion: YSF64230 (America-RC), FCS00422 or FCS00285 >>> (AmericaRagchewWireX) >>> (those are all the same) >>> >>> DMR(BM): 31360 (Tri-state) but sometimes 3173 (midatlantic) or >>> 3172 (northeast) or 91 (worldwide) >>> >>> D-Star: XREF310A or DCS006B >>> >>> FYI... D-Star does have pretty low use from what I can hear so I would >>> say >>> its a good place for longer conversations especially not on the main >>> modules (i.e. the letter after the number). For instance, XREF310C and >>> XREF310E through XREF310Z are listed as general use and I don't think >>> I've >>> even seen someone one module G or higher. >>> >>> >>> >>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. >>> Managing Member, DAO Technologies LLC >>> (O) +1.215.525.4165 x2033 >>> (M) +1.215.432.5167 >>> www.daotechnologies.com >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Rich Freeman" <r-plug@thefreemanclan.net> >>> To: "Philadelphia Linux User's Group Discussion List" < >>> plug@lists.phillylinux.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 8:35:52 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PLUG] PLUG Fusion room or DMR Talkgroup >>> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:27 AM Jim Fisher <jedijf@myfisher.org> wrote: >>> > >>> > OK. Let's get back to where this started....getting local like-minded >>> > folks ON THE AIR. >>> > >>> >>> I thought this was about a place to talk about PLUG/Linux, ideally on >>> the air? If you just want to talk on a repeater you can tune into any >>> of the local repeaters and key up... >>> >>> > >>> > A private talkgroup or whatever is STUPID. NOT ham radio. >>> > IT's AUDIO IRC. >>> > >>> > JOIN the Ham community. Don't isolate. Join a club. Go to meetings. >>> >>> So, I think this was more about the intersection of the PLUG community >>> and ham community, which isn't the same as the general ham community. >>> I doubt anybody is going to stop attending PLUG meetings or their >>> local ham club meetings because they're also participating in this. >>> >>> The problem with just pointing PLUG members to the directory of local >>> ham clubs is that they tend to cover different geographies/etc. There >>> is likely no repeater which all the PLUG members would all be able to >>> use conveniently (at least not which would make sense). >>> >>> The advantage with starting with an online reflector/group/etc is that >>> it immediately covers both the topic (PLUG members) and geography (the >>> world). It can then easily be bridged onto repeaters where this makes >>> sense, which gets you the OTA access. In the case of a BM DMR >>> talkgroup this can be done dynamically by anybody on any BM repeater >>> or hotspot. >>> >>> While I get that this might be perceived as isolationist, I think it >>> has the benefit of covering its niche better. I mean, we could all >>> talk about PLUG in some general-purpose IRC channel with 50 million >>> people on it, but #plug gets used because it is more focused. >>> >>> I think this is also part of why repeaters/etc are struggling. They >>> organize discussion by geography by default, and people prefer to >>> organize discussion by topic/interest. If you're interested in PERL >>> you would probably prefer to talk with somebody who is also interested >>> in PERL in Germany, over somebody who just doesn't see the point in >>> writing programs in syntax that resembles line noise who just happens >>> to live nearby. (Sorry, Walt, just curious if you've endured my rant >>> this long...) >>> >>> And of course there is no reason we can't do both. Continue to allow >>> the ham community to expose the Linux community to ham, and also >>> provide a more focused area. >>> >>> That said, if we don't think the RF adds a lot of benefit another >>> option is to just go with an FOSS voice chat protocol (mumble, >>> whatever), and then you don't need a patent-encumbered radio or FCC >>> license to use it. That would literally be voice IRC, but you >>> couldn't bridge it over RF. >>> >>> -- >>> Rich >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Kreno >>> >>> Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within >>> limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add >>> 'within >>> the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and >>> always so when it violates the rights of the individual. >>> - Thomas Jefferson >>> >>> I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left >>> and >>> hurl rocks at those in the center. >>> - Dwight D. Eisenhower >>> >>> Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal >>> motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent >>> and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> >>> With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final >>> judge >>> of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His >>> blessing >>> and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be >>> our >>> own. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> >>> For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all >>> inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish >>> our >>> children's futures, and we are all mortal. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Kreno >>> >>> Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within >>> limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add >>> 'within >>> the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and >>> always so when it violates the rights of the individual. >>> - Thomas Jefferson >>> >>> I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left >>> and >>> hurl rocks at those in the center. >>> - Dwight D. Eisenhower >>> >>> Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal >>> motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent >>> and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> >>> With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final >>> judge >>> of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His >>> blessing >>> and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be >>> our >>> own. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> >>> For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all >>> inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish >>> our >>> children's futures, and we are all mortal. >>> - John F. Kennedy >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- >>> http://www.phillylinux.org >>> Announcements - >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce >>> General Discussion -- >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug >>> >> >> >> -- >> John Kreno >> >> Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within >> limits >> drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the >> limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always >> so when it violates the rights of the individual. >> - Thomas Jefferson >> >> I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and >> hurl rocks at those in the center. >> - Dwight D. Eisenhower >> >> Not every child has an equal talent or an equal ability or equal >> motivation, but they should have the equal right to develop their talent >> and their ability and their motivation, to make something of themselves. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge >> of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His >> blessing >> and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our >> own. >> - John F. Kennedy >> >> For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all >> inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish >> our >> children's futures, and we are all mortal. >> - John F. Kennedy >> > > > -- > jim fisher > Jedijf > AJ3DI > www.aj3di.com/ > www.myfisher.org > > "Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'" > -- Jedi Master Yoda > -- jim fisher Jedijf AJ3DI www.aj3di.com/ www.myfisher.org "Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'" -- Jedi Master Yoda ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug