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Re: Assisting Elise S with editing grub.cfg



Jumping in for a moment to the Vi vs Nano vs Emacs debate:

I am not a programmer.  I have not learned vi.  Nano is enough for config files.  Vi reminds me of the Dvorak keyboard: an entire different muscle memory adventure.  Someday maybe.

My point is here:  Emacs had me instantly at the instant access to an info manual.   Secondarily, but ultimately more important: I can write little elisp utilities for my text editing requirements (for example editing a flat list of items separated by an arbitrary delimiter, maybe "|", I wrote  a tool to slide that delimiter on all lines to any column I might specify.   I ended up writing a bunch of little personal utilities)  AND this can be immediately assigned to a key.  

My original project was a zoological lexicon, typesetting it in LaTeX.  I discovered Unix text tools and Emacs through the Cygwin ports to WIndows, and migrated to GNU/Linux when that became known to me.  Different story. 

This special usefulness of Emacs is overlooked in most of the Vi vs Emacs debates.  One is an exacto knife, the other is a swiss army knife.  Or more.  IMHO one size does not fit all. 

I still appreciate lurking on this list, listening in to these interesting conversations.

My 2cents worth.


Alan Davis

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 11:16 PM 'Rick Moen' via BerkeleyLUG <berkeleylug@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Quoting goossbears (acohen36@gmail.com):

> Given vim's direct relationship to vi, that immediately brings to mind
> the widely known xkcd 'Real Programmers' cartoon https://xkcd.com/378/
> ;-)

It definitely had to end in an emacs joke!

There's actually a good reason why programmers tend to gravitate towards
emacs, and it's different but equally compelling to the reason
sysadmins tend to gravitate towards vi:  A finely tuned, personalised
emacs enviroment is a significant aid to productivity, _but_ doesn't
easily replicate from one machine to the next (or so I'm told).  So,
because coders can typically concentrate on making their home machine's
environment exactly right, the net benefit of all of that tweaking is
high.  Also, emacs really was designed from the get-go as a specialised
development tool for coders. 

By contrast, as I was mentioning, a larval-stage sysadmin benefits
greatly from mastering the core features of a very capable but
fundamentally basic, general-purpose editor that is reliably present
everywhere the sysadmin can expect to need to be productive (i.e., all
*ix machines).  It just happened to be vi that filled that niche.  vi's
value lay not in being insanely great; that value lay in being both
capable and fully available in its core feature set on all systems of
interest.[1]

nano doesn't have 1/10 the core functionality that basic vi does, but
that's not really the point.  nano had no opportunity to propagate into
vi's niche of being a universal *ix full-screen text editor, because vi
got there first.

(vi wasn't the first common *ix text editor, e.g., there were variously
awful and weird contenders like TECO,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TECO_(text_editor).  Why those never took
off is too long a story for here.)


[1] A number of vi variants have become obscure since the early days of
Linux.  One of my sentimental favourites was 'elvis', if only because,
if you exited your shell session and left a file open in /usr/bin/elvis,
you received e-mail about that from elvis.  Punch line:  You thereby
received proof that elvis is alive!

See:  http://www.linfo.org/vi/clones.html

Because of overshadowing of BSD legal rights by the AT&T v. UC Regents
lawsuit, for a very long time, Bill Joy's original vi implementation,
first released for 1BSD in 1976, was assumed to be AT&T-proprietary, and
so was shunned by free-software Unixes.  The first absolutely complete
from-scratch vi clone was Keith Bostic's nvi (1994), based in part on
Steve Kirkendall's 'elvis', was immediately adopted as the standard 'vi'
by the BSDs and by many Linux users (including Michael Paoli), and
interest in Bill Joy's original waned.  Although primordial vi was
-eventually- made available under a BSD-ish licence
http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/calder-lic.pdf) as 'Traditional Vi'
starting in 2002 (http://ex-vi.cvs.sourceforge.net), it's not clear that
anyone cared much, as it had long been supplanted.

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