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Re: BerkeleyLUG Google Groups (list) - backup(s) & ... (possibly) migrate to ...

From: goossbears <acohen36@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: BerkeleyLUG Google Groups (list) - backup(s) & ... (possibly) migrate to ...
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 09:35:12 -0700 (PDT)

On Saturday, April 3, 2021 at 1:29:29 PM UTC-7 michae...@cal.berkeley.edu

And ... list admin's can backup the existing Google Groups data,
and in form that can presumably be reasonably migrated to
something else. Anyway, I have backed that up (and ought turn it
into a regular occurrence - though it may or may not be feasible to
fully automate that).

And also, if we wanted to, e.g. change that instead to a mailman managed
list (already have other mailman hosted lists on the same host that hosts
http[s]://[www.][pi.]berkeleylug.com/), could, e.g. migrate that to
mailman. That would put it more in "our" control (and more out of Google's
control / out from under Google's thumb), and make it easier to, e.g.
backup. In any case, the list postings are public, so at least that part
of it probably doesn't make a huge difference (at least if it also gets
backed up at least once in a while) ... but other considerations might
be more significant.

Anyway, so ... what say y'all?

Have some mixed feelings specifically about migrating BerkeleyLUG's Google
Groups-managed mailing-list to a specific mailman-managed mailing-list.

How so?

+ Moving the mailing-list "more out of Google's control / out from under
Google's thumb" is likely a Very Good Thing :-) Already know of at least
one other person physically attending live BerkeleyLUG meetups in the past
who isn't at all very keen of being under the ever-encroaching aegis of
Google's data-mining Bandwagon! :-\

+ While the BerkeleyLUG Google Group's "list postings are [presumably]
public", it very much seems to me at least, IMHO, that Mailman-managed
mailing-list archives are much more readily and *easily accessible* for all
than are the same for Google Groups, e.g., it appears to be much easier to
provide a direct link to a particular Mailman mailing-list posting to
access from someone without a Google account than a posting to Google

- As the renown adage goes; "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It!"
Besides The Google Factor issue as mentioned above, What other specific
problems/"brokenness" are there with Google Groups that a mailman-managed
list can definitely fix -- but without the latter introducing its *own*
unique problems??

- Timing
Having live BerkeleyLUG meetups, IMNSHO, is so much better than the virtual
meetups via Jit.si Meet for a number of reasons which won't go into further
detail here and now.
It's entirely possible that more local people will want to participate in
live BerkeleyLUG meetups when it's entirely permissible to do -- even
including those on the current Google Groups mailing-list -- rather than
virtually participate via Jit.si meet.  Therefore ISTM that as far as
keeping and attracting more active BerkeleyLUG participation given current
predictions of live meetup venue reopenings, there is no impending urgency
at all to initiate a potential switch from a Google Groups mailing-list to
one managed by mailman.

- Costs
There may be minor (hopefully!) costs from switching over from the free
mailing-list managed by Google Groups to costs specific that of sole
mailman mailing-list management. Also, there are potential and additional
future costs in upgrading local hardware (HW resources such as memory,
local backup capability, machine availability/uptime, ...etc.) as well as
administrative "costs" (i.e., administrative time, effort, troubleshooting)
when hosting and managing mailman as compared to the same with Google

Given all of the above, would guess that unless Michael P and/or others are
particularly deadset on doing a full mailing-list switchover from Google
Groups to mailman in an ASAP fashion, in balance, it's probably best to
hold off on such a switchover.


Well, there would be bit 'o work switching over, but not all that much.
Actually looks helluva lot easier than migrating BALUG's lists off
of DreamHost.com was - as DreamHost.com made extricating data a very
painful process.  Comparatively, getting the data off of Google Groups
is quite easy and relatively fast.

And one of the benefits of switching over would be better backups and
general comparative ease-of-maintenance.  Notably Google Groups is
essentially a one-off, needing it's own separate procedures and
interfaces for backing up, managing, etc., and they also don't well
lend themselves to automation.  So ... day-to-day, month-to-month,
etc., it is and generally continues to be an ongoing
bit more work than if the lists were moved over.
Whereas all the other LUG lists on that host where the web sites are
hosted, are all already using mailman, so, the incremental on having
"one more list" there, is quite small.  And would also benefit from
the regular backups that routinely happen for that host, etc.

And ... timing?
Well, currently, the lists are using mailman2.
mailman3, but not mailman2, is supported on Debian 11 bullseye, which
will likely be released about mid-year +- a few months.  So, a
"least effort" migration of the BerkeleyLUG Google Groups list would
likely look like:
o existing lists migrate to mailman3
o host is upgraded to Debian 11 bullseye
o (the above happen regardless of what happens with the BerkeleyLUG list)
o migrate BerkeleyLUG list from Google Groups to mailman3
Anyway, timing-wise, that would probably put it at 2021H2,
or maybe even later.

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