Roger Scudder on Sun, 10 Jan 1999 03:53:14 -0500 (EST)


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Re: Anybody out there?


On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Rebecca Ore wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 09, 1999 at 03:18:11PM -0500, Roger Scudder wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Rebecca Ore wrote:
> > 
> > I think it is safe to say that we have all been in the position of
> > being a confused, neophyte.  I did my first Linux install not long
> > after getting my first PC.  If it had not been for the lengthy chats
> > I had with Chris McKeen at World One BBS (one of the first Bulletin 
> > Board Systems in DelCo to run Linux) who patiently answered my 
> > endless questions, I may have been denied that wonderful early 
> > experience with Linux.  
> 
> I installed my first Linux RedHat up to the command-line without any
> help at all.  Chris Fearnley helped tremendously in getting X started
> and configured.

My first install was... I believe it was called SLS or something..
anyway it was pre 1.0 kernel.  I am pretty sure RedHat didn't exist
yet.  People complain about the state of the documentation now, 
it was quite a bit worse then.  What happened to me was I had 
downloaded a set of install images and tried numerous times to get 
them to install.  Obviously it just wasn't going to happen.  I was 
unaware of the CD distros and didn't even have a CD drive (they 
were rather new and expensive at the time).  Then I met Chris who 
turned me on to MDW's Install and Getting started, a set of working 
disk images, and of course the midnight chats about *NIX. 

I got X, PPP, and everything else running without any help.  BTW,
I'm still an old FVWM tweaker, but the Gnome stuff looks B A D
so I will likely move to it.    

> I work for netaxs now and bite people who bite newbies or psuedo newbies
> as a professional courtesy.

Cool... hey, if you bite me I promise I'll bark like a dog... honest...
for real though, what is a psuedo newbie?

> > at ease with the a GUI configuration system.   Then there are those who,
> > for one reason or other, are more comfortable with a text based interface.
> > It is not unusual for those among the latter to actually find the GUI
> > intimidating.   Your words suggest that you assume all Linux novices to
> > be among the former.  Rather than make assumptions about the questioner
> > I requested specific information about the question. 
> 
> Did he email both of us?  One thing I do in groups is try to catch
> newbies and help them before the turbo studs chomp them.  I've also had

"Turbo Studs"?  hehehe...  believe me, I am far removed from being
one of them.

> someone tell me things that were undo-able, as the programmer who wrote
> the program said to me in email.  The beauty part was when the guy who'd
> condescended to me asked a question.  I answered it, correctly, having
> installed precisely those plugins in the same program he'd misadvised me
> on.  He did't want to hear it from me and asked again.  The whole group
> must have had the same opinion of him as I did.  Nobody else answered.
> I explained it again.  He tried it, it worked, and he did have the grace
> to thank me.
> 
> > 
> > > For programmers to expect programming skills of everyone smacks of
> > > immaturity or the sort of ridiculousness that some artists display when
> > > they say that the only people who count in society are artists and
> > > everyone else should go away (yes, there are artists who are as arrogant
> > > as programmers, with better justification as the money on the
> > > top is much better and most artists are better gardeners and cooks than
> > > programmers and have better taste in clothes).
> > 
> > Hmmm...  interesting insight.  You should note that making generalized
> > statements about groups also smacks of immaturity... at best.  There 
> > may well be some truth in these words, however it is overshadowed by a
> > tone of hostility and prejudice.  Words can be like swords.  Be careful
> > how you wield them.
> > 
> 
> If I could make more than 20K a book wielding them other than how I
> wield them, I would.  

Well, you could always switch to writing romance novels.  I confess
I was not aware of your work, but I haven't read sf in over 10 years.
I will make it a point to read some of your stuff in the near future.
btw, I was a child artist too.  By the time I was 16 I had an 
impressive portfolio and hopes for a career in the fine arts.  About 
that time I discovered heroin which changed my life dramatically.

> > Now you're rewriting history.   Please show me at what point I attempted
> > to teach him a "moderate skill level".  The only person making any 
> > attacks here is you.
> 
> No, I'm teasing you.  I'm the resident despammer scum on the Freedom
> Knights list, so I know an attack when I see one, but perhaps you don't.

yeah, whatever.... it was the closest thing to an attack that happened
on THIS list since I started reading last week. :-p 

[many lines about RO's involvement in development projects trimmed ]

> I got tired of people assuming always that I was doing
> something wrong because I was female, non-programmer, fifty-years old,
> etc.  If the intention is to provide good working code with boundary
> conditions for systems it works on specified in configure, then I'm your
> beta tester.  If you want to provide code that needs to be massaged to
> get it to compile -- cool, I'll let you know you succeeded on that, too.
> And, while I can make mistakes, I generally do have a good sense of what
> I'm doing (i.e., if a Gimp or Gnome package doesn't compile, the first
> next thing to try is upgrading glibs and gtk, but if it's XEmacs, try
> some variations in configure options).

I can tell that you are very active and knowledgeable.  I also respect
your ovaries out and in the wind approach.  And I'm sure I could learn
a hell of alot from you.  It's only when you start generalizing about 
groups that you lose me.  I think you're better than that.

> Boy, you sure do have a biased view of non-programming beta testers,
> don't you?

Huh?...  Oh, yeah, your teasing me again.  I never once made a
distinction between programmers and non-programmers.  I mean I have no
biased views about gays or blacks or republicans, so why should I 
feel differently about non-programmers???

Ok, Ok ...maybe I DO have biased views about republicans... 


Roger C. Scudder Jr.
Philadelphia, PA, US
rscudder@usa.net
I'd rather be running Linux!




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