|
[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]
|
Re: [PLUG] microsoft lost
|
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Bill Jonas wrote:
> I'm going to assume from your above statement of "Or how [doing x]
> promotes Linux to non-Linux users" that you consider getting others to
> use Linux an acceptable aim of this list.
> a.) How is this *not* a political issue?
It's a fucking operating system, not a political party.
> b.) Why is advocating the use of Free Software in governmment any
> different than advocating it for personal use?
The thread wasn't about that. It was a paranoid political tirade.
> And note that by capitalizing "libertarian", *you* are the one who is
> introducing the Libertarian Party into this thread. I was referring to
> the philosophy and school of thought that each should be free to do as
> he chooses and do what he wishes, as long as it does not impinge on
> others' freedoms to do the same.
I was referring to the philosophy and thought it was a proper noun. I
wasn't aware that making it a proper noun implied the political party.
> Would it be better if I said that I was an anarchist? Or a
> totalitarian, perhaps? Would that make anything I said any more or less
> "holier-than-thou"?
Nope, I don't really care what you are.
> Please explain again how this is *not* something that is "of interest"
> to a member of the Philadelphia Linux User's Group. I think I missed
> that part.
> >Odd. This is usually what other people seem to want. I think I'm looking
> >for "Philadelphia Non-religious Users' Mailing List".
>
> Users of what?
Linux.
> Except for you, I've seen no criticism of the recent posts except for
> one other person knocking conspiracy theories. I'd agree that those are
> best left off-list. But you, sir, seem to be religiously against Linux
> advocacy.
Because everytime someone suggests moderation of the rabid anti-Microsoft
(and I mean Microsoft the company) attitude that seems to infect the Linux
community, they get slapped down.
> It's different and you know it. There is really no effective way to
> block out the former. Try this; it should be very effective for you
> (and I know for a fact that you have shell access and use it (finger is
> a wonderful thing)):
Yes, in fact the mail (this one too) was sent from my shell account.
And no, the concept is the same. You're expecting me to take action when
others should show a bit more respect and/or restraint.
> I remind you, this list is for the discussion of things that are of
> interest to the Philadelphia Linux User's Group.
Can I start discussing why I find the Muromachi period of Japan
intersting? Where does it stop?
> >I've been polite.
>
> Actually, I find it offensive the way you try to stifle discussion.
>
> >And you, apparently, weren't satisfied with my being
> >objective (objective means to not include personal feelings or opinions).
>
> It is your *opinion* that the thread does not belong on PLUG.
Yes, because I, and probably others, find the blantant Microsoft-bashing
insulting, inappropriate, and, frankly, damaging to Linux.
> >Now, you appear to want to make it personal.
>
> I was merely pointing out my own opinion.
No, you made a personal attack. Or do I need to go dig your "emperor's
clothes" comment in reference to my certifications out of the archive?
> It does not. It appears to me, though, that it would be a very
> difficult thing to maintain one's objectivity in such an environment.
No, actually it makes it easier. Because I've taken time to learn about
both sides. When I say "this is bad" about Microsoft, I'm actually saying
it with real world professional knowledge and experience.
> If you define "bashing" as "criticism", then let's all just stop saying
> anything critical of anything or anybody.
Criticism requires knowledge of what you're criticizing. Bashing involves
spouting off without bothering to learn the facts. I'll cite as an
example when the Knowledge Base article about removing a Linux partition
was posted to the list. It was cited as yet more evidence that Microsoft
hates Linux, when it was plain, practical information on how to do
something that's not necessarily straight-forward.
> >Or maybe, just maybe, I have actual, real experience with Microsoft?
>
> I don't doubt that an MCP or MCT such as yourself does. (Please note
> that that sentence was *not* intended as sarcastic. It should be taken
> at face value.)
>
> >Hmm... perhaps I've been able to form a mature, informed opinion about
> >Microsoft and Linux, instead of just getting carried along by the
> >religious and political fervor, the FUD, and the hyperbole on BOTH sides.
>
> Well, then, you're better than most people in the world, and my hat's
> off to you. (Again, a serious sentence. I don't want to be accused of
> sarcastic insults.)
That's my point. I DON'T view myself as better than the average bear.
THIS is why I think that the rabid anti-Microsoft attitude in the Linux
community is damaging.
> I *do* resent the implication of immaturity, though.
My apologies. I didn't mean it personally. The Linux community, through
the above-mentioned attitude exhibits immaturity.
> Frankly, I don't think any operating system could capture the breadth of
> MS's desktop market even if *MS itself* started pushing it instead of
> Windows.
Yes, it could. Microsoft's two biggest strengths are 1) marketing and 2)
user interfaces. And just to make this applicable to Linux: the Linux
community should take a hint from this. While Windows may not be the best
platform out there, keep in mind that it easily has the majority of the
market. There's a reason.
> Anyhow, I don't think it's a good thing that any one operating system
> have that much of the (desktop) market. (I assume that you were
> referring to the desktop since MS doesn't have a server monopoly.) I
> can forsee Windows, Linux, *BSD, BeOS, and others, all having differing
> market share, but with no one of them having a majority. And IMO,
> Windows would more than likely become an even *better* choice because of
> it, because then it would be made better/more stable because of
> competition.
Agreed. Competition is good in the server market, also.
> Please explain why Microsoft continues to be so successful, then, in
> light of the "religious" anti-{non-MS OS} "rhetoric" one can find at
> microsoft.com?
I don't really view Microsoft's marketing as "religious". They don't try
to make the competition out as evil or as inherently bad. They stick to
pointing out how their product is better. The difference is subtle. The
up-and-coming product needs to approach carefully, or else their
self-promotion will sound like sour grapes instead of marketing.
> >Users want applications and operating systems, not politics and
> >rhetoric.
>
> I have to disagree with this.
You are agreeing, though. The purpose of applications and OSes is to get
work done.
> >Oh, but of course, I'm an MCP/MCT, so that must just be Microsoft
> >talking.
>
> I didn't say that carrying those initials after your name invalidated
> your opinion or meant that you spoke for Microsoft, I just pointed out
> that you are the main (and usually first) one to jump in on a thread
> that has a negative bent toward Microsoft and empirically declare it
> unfit for the list.
No, it's when threads degenerate into bashing Microsoft that I step in.
Keep in mind, I do my own share of criticizing Microsoft. I'll even do it
in a class. It's part of my job.
In this case, however, it's not just the MS bashing, but the purely
political nature of the discussion. It wasn't really about Microsoft or
Linux, but about our state government and how it spends our tax money.
> What do *you* think?
No, more lists aren't necessary. All that's needed, I think, is for
people to remember that not everyone has the same philosophy, outlook, or
opinions, and these should be respected.
Michael W. Ryan, MCP, MCT | OTAKON 2000
mryan@netaxs.com | Convention of Otaku Generation
http://www.netaxs.com/~mryan/ | http://www.otakon.com/
PGP fingerprint: 7B E5 75 7F 24 EE 19 35 A5 DF C3 45 27 B5 DB DF
PGP public key available by fingering mryan@unix.netaxs.com (use -l opt)
______________________________________________________________________
Philadelphia Linux Users Group - http://plug.nothinbut.net
Announcements - http://lists.nothinbut.net/mail/listinfo/plug-announce
General Discussion - http://lists.nothinbut.net/mail/listinfo/plug
|
|