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Re: [PLUG] microsoft lost
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Michael W. Ryan wrote:
>Yes, but it appears that I need to include opinion now.
If you feel you must, then by all means, be my guest. Of course, I am
unable to prevent anyone from doing anything they wish even if they
*don't* feel they must.
>Please explain to me, then how accusing Microsoft of co-opting our state
>government helps a new user get his first Linux system installed. Or how
>claiming that the Pennsylvania state government is going to require the
>use of Microsoft products helps an experienced Linux user do new things
>with his system. Or how promoting paranoid political agendas promotes
>Linux to non-Linux users.
I didn't realize that the purpose of this list is solely to "get things
done", although that is the primary goal. As stated on
http://lists.nothinbut.net/mail/listinfo/plug:
"This list is for the discussion of _all_topics_of_interest_ [emphasis
mine] to the Philadelphia Linux Users Group, and includes all
announcements from the PLUG-Announce mailing list (upcoming meeting
announcements, etc.). Posts reguarding local related (UNIX / Open
Source) job openings are acceptable."
Would you please explain to *me*, then how a non-educational posting on
a topic "of interest to the Philadelphia Linux Users Group" helps a new
user get his first Linux system installed. Or how posting a job opening
helps an experienced Linux user do new things with his system. Or how
announcing an upcoming meeting promotes Linux to non-Linux users.
>I'd call accusing Microsoft of forcing Pennsylvania residents to advertise
>for them or forcing Pennsylvania residents to use Microsoft products
>"Microsoft bashing".
I'd say that someone who is stating that they don't want to be forced to
advertise a web site, but who may *choose* to do so, in order to promote
technology, is not "bashing" anything.
As for "Microsoft... forcing Pennsylvania residents to use Microsoft
products", this was not said and you know it. What *was* said is that
there may be a subtle attempt to influence consumers' choice of
products. When that happens in the commercial world, it is called
"advertising". When that happens in government, it is called
"unacceptable".
>Please. You know very well that the purpose of this group is NOT
>political issues.
I'm going to assume from your above statement of "Or how [doing x]
promotes Linux to non-Linux users" that you consider getting others to
use Linux an acceptable aim of this list.
a.) How is this *not* a political issue?
b.) Why is advocating the use of Free Software in governmment any
different than advocating it for personal use?
>Yes, and I've had the Libertarian, holier-than-thou agenda shoved down my
>throat here enough times, thank you.
Please cite examples.
And note that by capitalizing "libertarian", *you* are the one who is
introducing the Libertarian Party into this thread. I was referring to
the philosophy and school of thought that each should be free to do as
he chooses and do what he wishes, as long as it does not impinge on
others' freedoms to do the same.
Would it be better if I said that I was an anarchist? Or a
totalitarian, perhaps? Would that make anything I said any more or less
"holier-than-thou"?
I cannot recall having shoved anything down anyone's throat. If you can
provide evidence to the contrary, please do. I'm interested to see what
fits into your definition of this.
Oh, and you're welcome.
>More MS bashing.
To the contrary, it is an honest statement of my feeling.
>Could you please cite for me HOW MUCH, with references,
>money was spent by our state government? Could you also compare and
>contrast this with an analysis and estimate for the same thing for a Linux
>platform? If not, you're just bashing.
I cannot, and I never said that I *could*. And because I cannot, this
does *not* mean that I am bashing. As I said above, it is an honest
statement of how I feel about this. I stated that I am offended that
they would send tax money to the state of Washington when there is
better software for the job that would allow that money to be used to
enrich *this* state's economy by providing more/higher-paying jobs for
the people that have to maintain these systems.
For desktop systems, for the average user that the state employs, Linux
isn't quite there yet. For these users, yes, Windows 9x/NT/2000 or
whatever is a better choice. For the servers, though, where experienced
computer users maintain systems that should be highly reliable, I
contend that Microsoft is *not* a better choice. (I'll grant you, I've
heard anecdotal evidence that Win2K can run about 90 days without
crashing or needing a reboot, as opposed to every week or two with NT4.
But 90 days is still a far cry from Linux or *BSD.)
>And I disagree. I'm asking that it be taken off list.
Please explain again how this is *not* something that is "of interest"
to a member of the Philadelphia Linux User's Group. I think I missed
that part.
>Odd. This is usually what other people seem to want. I think I'm looking
>for "Philadelphia Non-religious Users' Mailing List".
Users of what?
Except for you, I've seen no criticism of the recent posts except for
one other person knocking conspiracy theories. I'd agree that those are
best left off-list. But you, sir, seem to be religiously against Linux
advocacy.
>And I suppose when someone start screaming at the top of their lungs in my
>apartment complex at 3 am, I'm supposed to just pull more pillows over my
>head and block it out?
It's different and you know it. There is really no effective way to
block out the former. Try this; it should be very effective for you
(and I know for a fact that you have shell access and use it (finger is
a wonderful thing)):
cat >> ~/.procmailrc
:0
* ^Subject:.*microsoft lost
/dev/null
I remind you, this list is for the discussion of things that are of
interest to the Philadelphia Linux User's Group.
PLUG has 268 people subscribed. If even 30 (that's ~11.194%) of those
say that they don't wish to see the word "Microsoft" in an email with a
subject line that contains "[PLUG]" again, then I'll cede the point to
you, and we should change the list description.
>I've been polite.
Actually, I find it offensive the way you try to stifle discussion.
>And you, apparently, weren't satisfied with my being
>objective (objective means to not include personal feelings or opinions).
It is your *opinion* that the thread does not belong on PLUG.
>Now, you appear to want to make it personal.
I was merely pointing out my own opinion.
>Yes, I am a current Microsoft Certified Professional and a Microsoft
>Certified Trainer. And I work for a Microsoft Certified Solution Provider
>and Partner. One of the top 3 Certified Technical Education Centers in
>1999. I'm sorry, does this invalidate my opinion?
It does not. It appears to me, though, that it would be a very
difficult thing to maintain one's objectivity in such an environment.
>Do you think that maybe I, or any other professional who works with the
>Microsoft environment, finds the incessent Microsoft bashing insulting?
"Incessant." I've seen no evidence of anything of the sort continuing
non-stop on this list. Or are you speaking of in general? I'm sorry, I
thought this was a discussion of what goes on on this list.
If you define "bashing" as "criticism", then let's all just stop saying
anything critical of anything or anybody.
>Or maybe, just maybe, I have actual, real experience with Microsoft?
I don't doubt that an MCP or MCT such as yourself does. (Please note
that that sentence was *not* intended as sarcastic. It should be taken
at face value.)
>Hmm... perhaps I've been able to form a mature, informed opinion about
>Microsoft and Linux, instead of just getting carried along by the
>religious and political fervor, the FUD, and the hyperbole on BOTH sides.
Well, then, you're better than most people in the world, and my hat's
off to you. (Again, a serious sentence. I don't want to be accused of
sarcastic insults.)
I *do* resent the implication of immaturity, though.
>I've said it before. Linux's biggest problem isn't a lack of
>applications, or hard-to-find drivers, or cryptic documentation, or rough
>edges. It's biggest threat isn't Microsoft. It's its rabid, religious
>"advocates". You want to take over Microsoft's market? Fine,
Frankly, I don't think any operating system could capture the breadth of
MS's desktop market even if *MS itself* started pushing it instead of
Windows.
Besides, NT/2K isn't king on the server.
Anyhow, I don't think it's a good thing that any one operating system
have that much of the (desktop) market. (I assume that you were
referring to the desktop since MS doesn't have a server monopoly.) I
can forsee Windows, Linux, *BSD, BeOS, and others, all having differing
market share, but with no one of them having a majority. And IMO,
Windows would more than likely become an even *better* choice because of
it, because then it would be made better/more stable because of
competition.
>but when are you going to realise that religion makes businesses
>nervous?
Please explain why Microsoft continues to be so successful, then, in
light of the "religious" anti-{non-MS OS} "rhetoric" one can find at
microsoft.com?
>Users want applications and operating systems, not politics and
>rhetoric.
I have to disagree with this. Most average users want to complete their
tasks with a minimum of time and effort. They don't *really* care which
OSs or applications they use, as long as they can do what they need to
do. For most users, this translates into Windows (since they already
"know Windows", it's less effort) and Office (because of its superior
support for the Office file formats) on the desktop.
Computing professionals are similar. They also want to get things done
quickly and easily, if possible, *but using the "best" solution*. The
main difference, IMO, is that they *do* tend to care which OSs and
applications they use.
>Oh, but of course, I'm an MCP/MCT, so that must just be Microsoft
>talking.
I didn't say that carrying those initials after your name invalidated
your opinion or meant that you spoke for Microsoft, I just pointed out
that you are the main (and usually first) one to jump in on a thread
that has a negative bent toward Microsoft and empirically declare it
unfit for the list.
Perhaps two lists aren't enough. Perhaps we should break into the
following:
Plug-Announce: Same as it is now.
Plug-Linuxhelp: Only for discussions about doing something with your
system.
Plug-Linuxonly: No mentions of any other operating systems whatsoever
tolerated here.
Plug-Plug: Discussions about the group itself.
Meta-Plug: Discussions about the various lists.
Plug-Discuss: The new name of this list, having the same charter. This
group would include all the topics which are currently allowed by
the description but which you feel are inappropriate.
Plug-It: Where list members condemn others' postings as being off-topic.
What do *you* think?
Bill
--
"I couldn't give him advice in business and he couldn't give me
advice in technology." --Linus Torvalds, about why he wouldn't
be interested in meeting Bill Gates
Harry Browne for President: http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
Stop abusive software patents! http://www.noamazon.com/
Visit me at http://www.netaxs.com/~bj/
______________________________________________________________________
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Announcements - http://lists.nothinbut.net/mail/listinfo/plug-announce
General Discussion - http://lists.nothinbut.net/mail/listinfo/plug
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