| Andrew M. on 19 Nov 2018 11:44:06 -0800 |
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| Re: [PLUG] Open Source Equivalent of WordPerfect |
IM(H)?O, LibreOffice is awesome. It can be used with markup approaches: you can create paragraph styles, then ultimately save the document as HTML, where the styles will be reflected as tags/classes. Then you clean up with Perl or Python. I have done this with ebooks and also to author a bunch of HTML content for insertion into a database. I agree with Bhaskar that the output HTML might be unexpected or clunky but think that LibreOffice's suite of features makes it worth it. On Mon, Nov 19, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Fred Stluka wrote: > Bhaskar, > > Always nice to trip across another old VAX RUNOFF and Unix > roff/nroff/troff guy! > > Did you ever use IBM's Script tool? I used it at a summer internship > at IBM in 1982. You'd write text, marked up with SGML markup tags > to identify elements like chapters, sections, paragraphs, lists, tables, > etc. Then you'd run the Script tool to render the formatted doc. > It pulled rules on how to format each element from the cascading > standard project-wide, department-wide and corporate-wide sets > of Script macros and DTDs. > > So, we flunkies created content and our overlords decided how it > would be formatted. Technically, I think we could have written our > own personal Script macros and DTDs to override some/all of the > formatting, but few of us knew how. > > A couple years later, I was using VAX RUNOFF and sorely missing > the ability to specify the formatting. It was like using SGML with a > single hardcoded set of Script formatting macros. > > Then roff/nroff/troff. Then WYSIWYG Interleaf that stored itself as > markup. Then Word that was WYSIWYG-only, stored in a > proprietary binary format. It just kept getting worse and worse! > > About 10 years later, in 1996, I started using HTML and it was like > coming home. Finally, I could write docs in markup again! And > could even specify the formatting separately in CSS and DTDs. > Better yet, it was "deja vu all over again"! The HTML looked just like > the old familiar SGML, complete with angle brackets and all. Nice! > > See: > - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language#Concrete_and_abstract_syntaxes > > Happy Thanksgiving! > --Fred > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Fred Stluka -- Bristle Software, Inc. -- http://bristle.com > #DontBeATrump -- Make America Honorable Again! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On 11/19/18 3:17 AM, K.S. Bhaskar wrote: > > As one who has used markup languages including the original markup > > language (runoff / nroff / troff, pre-processed by eqn / neqn, tbl, > > and m4) all the way through HTML and DocBook XML to reStructured Text > > (e.g., > > https://gitlab.com/YottaDB/DB/YDBDoc/blob/master/MultiLangProgGuide/MultiLangProgGuide.rst), > > as well as WYSIWYG tools (going back to Word-11 on RSTS to LibreOffice > > including Interleaf and various editions of Microsoft Word), my > > opinion is that everything has its place. > > > > WYSIWYG tools are unbeatable for quick, short documents like resumes > > and business letters. Just get it done. > > > > Markup languages are great for large documents (whose size means that > > they are often maintained by multiple people over long periods of > > time) and where you want to separate the content from the > > presentation. We maintain all our user documentation using git (on > > GitLab, mirrored to GItHub). For example, the reStructured > > Multi-Language Programmers Guide above is published as a web page at > > https://docs.yottadb.com/MultiLangProgGuide/ and we can also generate > > PDFs and ePub should we want to. > > > > Regards > > – Bhaskar > > > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 5:04 PM Fred Stluka <fred@bristle.com > > <mailto:fred@bristle.com>> wrote: > > > > Casey, > > > > JP has the right idea when he says: > > > > > I switched to markup languages and never looked back. > > My votes are: > > +1 for markup languages. > > +1 for tools that generate markup languages. > > > > The dominant markup language these days is HTML. And as JP > > says, there are other less wordy markup languages that generate > > it: Markdown, Asciidoc, etc. > > > > Working directly in a markup language is pretty easy. You > > simply mix the formatting commands in among the words of > > the document. Commands to start a new paragraph, change > > text font or color, center a line, insert an image, create a list > > or a list item, etc. > > > > I find it better than a WYSIWYG tool like Word, LibreOffice, > > WordPerfect, WordStar, Interleaf, etc. Those tools respond to > > keystrokes, menu clicks, etc. by doing things they think I want. > > But I sometimes find those actions and effects to be totally > > unexpected. And all too often I can't figure out how to prevent > > an effect that is now persisting for all or a portion of my doc. > > > > My favorite such tool was Interleaf (1990 or so, on Apollo Unix > > workstations) because it was a WYSIWYG tool that stored each > > doc as an ASCII file of markup, not in a binary format. I > > sometimes got frustrated with things like "Why is this line of > > text insisting on remaining centered, when I wanted it left- > > aligned?!??!". But, I could just open the markup file in any > > ASCII text editor (vi, emacs, etc.), scan or search for the > > relevant text, and notice that it was annotated with markup > > that used the word "center". > > > > Then, I could go back to the WYSIWYG tool, search the help files > > for that exact markup command, and learn how to undo it. Or > > could make a change in the WYSIWYG tool, then diff or view the > > markup file to see what changed, and figure it out myself. Or > > could simply delete that part of the markup to fix the problem, > > bypassing the WYSIWYG tool entirely. > > > > Furthermore, I could write shell scripts and small programs to > > process the text of the markup files, making consistent changes > > to all sections of a file, or to multiple files, rather than having to > > use the WYSIWYG tool to manually edit each occurrence. > > > > These days, if you're not comfortable directly editing HTML or > > even Markup or Asciidoc, there are lots of WYSIWYG tools out > > there to provide a simple point/click UI like you see in Word, > > WordPerfect and the others. See: > > - http://google.com/search?q=WYSIWYG+HTML+editor > > > > Also, many of the tools where you'll want to enter formatted text > > now accept some form of markup. Examples: Wikis, GitHub, > > BitBucket, Jira, etc. > > > > These days, I do ALL of my documents in HTML: my resume, > > my consulting contracts, invoices, design docs, etc. Such docs > > can be stored in a single file, backed up, printed, copied to a > > USB drive, etc. They can also easily be attached to an email, and > > pretty much all email clients can render them without the > > recipient even having to fire up a browser to view the attachment. > > > > Here are some samples of docs created in HTML: > > - My resume: > > http://bristle.com/~fred/resume.htm > > <http://bristle.com/%7Efred/resume.htm> > > - A typical invoice to a client on my company's HTML letterhead: > > http://bristle.com/Temp/2016_07_HHL.htm > > > > Note that you didn't have to install Word, LibreOffice, or even a > > PDF viewer to view those 2 docs. Any web browser or phone can > > open them. I only use LibreOffice to view/edit any non-HTML > > docs that other people send me, never for my own docs. > > > > I'm a HUGE fan of FOSS. But, I did a search for a WYSIWYG HTML > > editors a few years back. I specifically wanted one that would do > > these 3 things: > > > > 1. Allow me to create and edit docs without ever looking at HTML > > when my goal was to just pretend I was in Word or LibreOffice > > and whip up or edit a doc using entirely a WYSIWYG interface. > > > > 2. Offer a dual mode where I could see and edit the HTML directly > > watching the instantaneous effects it had on the rendered doc, > > and could also edit the rendered doc directly via the WYSIWYG > > interface, watching the instantaneous effects it had on the > > HTML markup. > > > > 3. Allow me to open a file of hand-crafted HTML from someone > > else, make a minor change via the WYSIWYG interface or by > > directly editing the HTML markup, and save the file WITHOUT > > having the entire file re-indented, word-wrapped, or in any > > other way reformatted. When I sent the edited file back to the > > author and he ran a diff tool, I wanted hm to see only the > > changes that I intended to make, no other noise. > > > > Unfortunately, the only tool I could find to meet all 3 criteria was > > Dreamweaver, which is proprietary, not FOSS. So, I bought it and > > have used it happily ever since. Are there better FOSS options by > > now? > > > > --Fred > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Fred Stluka -- Bristle Software, Inc. -- http://bristle.com > > #DontBeATrump -- Make America Honorable Again! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > On 11/17/18 11:37 AM, JP Vossen wrote: > > > On 11/17/18 10:33 AM, Casey Bralla wrote: > > >> Does anybody know if there is an open source equivalent to > > WordPerfect? > > >> All the word processing programs I have tried all seem to > > emulate MS > > >> Word, which I detest. I used to be able to make WP sing, but > > MS Word > > >> is a burden since it tries to outsmart me and anticipate what > > it thinks > > >> I want to do, instead of letting me do what I really want to do! > > >> > > >> I've been using LibreOffice, and it's adequate, but I was > > hoping for > > >> more. > > >> > > >> Anybody have any suggestions? > > > > > > I never liked WP, I used MultiMate, then WordStar, then various > > > versions of MS Word. I liked Word, and used correctly (which > > almost > > > no one does) it used to be not that bad. Unnecessary feature bloat > > > and the "ribbon" interface have rendered Word unusable, at least > > for > > > me. As noted, LibreOffice can be adequate, be even it is far > > > overcomplicated. I switched to markup languages and never > > looked back. > > > > > > Casey, what are your use cases? Would a wiki work? Mediawiki > > (powers > > > wikipedia) is great for all kinds of docs & notes, but it's wiki > > > markup is feeling very old and primitive to me these days. > > There are > > > a great many others, including some local/desktop lines like Zim. > > > (Zim is awesome.) > > > > > > Writing in Markdown or Asciidoc then rendering into HTML or PDF > > using > > > one of the tool chains might work. The tool chains can be a > > PITA to > > > get going, but once you have it working everything is effortless. > > > There are "static" wikis that work like that too, you have a Git > > > commit hook that renders, so a commit or push to the right place > > just > > > renders & publishes. > > > > > > Other random musings: > > > We wrote the first edition of the _Bash Cookbook_ in OpenOffice, > > and I > > > had to go to some contortions to handle code samples. Then O'Reilly > > > converted that into Word, then converted the Word into DocBook > > because > > > that's how their workstream was a the time (circa 2007). That was > > > very painful and introduced a lot of errors. > > > > > > We wrote the second edition in Asciidoc in Git (converted by > > O'Reilly > > > from the 1st DocBook, circa 2017). That was great. > > > > > > Every so often I look at the current markup languages and think > > about > > > Tex/LaTeX and WordStar "dot" commands and macros, and then think > > about > > > the cyclical nature of tech and IT... > > > > > > Later, > > > JP > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > JP Vossen, CISSP | http://www.jpsdomain.org/ | > > http://bashcookbook.com/ > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > > > Announcements - > > > http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > > > General Discussion -- > > http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > > Announcements - > > http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > > General Discussion -- > > http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > > Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > > General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug