Re: next talk after Clojure?

[Scott Fraser <Scott.E.Fraser@gmail.com>]

Jonathan - yes, single-platform is partially my issue (though as Steve
pointed out it's less of an issue because of Mono, and also there are
Silverlight runtimes on multiple OS'es now).

But the major "taint" I refer to is in reference to a corporation with
a known history of illegally leveraging their control of the platform
to their competitive advantage. All of us working in IT need only look
back to the 90's to get a case study of how Microsoft will use the
platform as a weapon. My career in the 90's was dominated and impacted
by their knocking out worthy competitors (Borland for example) by what
I believe were illegal business tactics. SCO/Linux would be a more
recent example. I started with Xenix in the 80's, then Sun and HP UX
(with GNU toolsets BTW!) in the early 90's, so by the time I started
using Win 3.1 I knew what a "stable" OS was all about. I was shocked
to see how unstable Windows was - all versions - throughout the 90's.
And then to watch them knock out their competitors during that time -
it drove me crazy! I went from programming C/C++ on rock solid Unixes
to Windows GPF nightmares all day long. I couldn't believe how bad it
was.

One reason Microsoft seems like they are opening up now is they are
finally on their heels due to the Linux/Gnu/Java/open-source
onslaught. And some of their business model/cash-cows are becoming
less viable.

So that's the "taint" I am referring to. They are like a drug dealer -
you start using their crack, and they will make sure you can't quit! I
think functional languages that target the now GPL Java stack will
have much more viability and long term potential. I would be very
hesitant to place my bet on a functional language that targets .NET
and the CLR.

-Scott

On Nov 13, 5:16 pm, "Jonathan Tran" <jonnyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is this "taint" you're talking about?  The fact that it's mainly
> single-platform?
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Scott Fraser <Scott.E.Fra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for pointing that out Steve.
>
> > I never quite got why Miguel and friends did Mono, especially
> > considering at the start of the project they had no support from
> > Microsoft. Nice to have Mono in the world, but not sure of the long
> > term value now with the GPL'ing of Java. However I think Microsoft did
> > submit some of the CLR to a standards body, no?
>
> > I personally see the .NET stack to be tainted, and therefore anything
> > built on top of it potentially crippled by that taint.
>
> > The big value I see in .NET and the CLR is the competition it provides
> > to the rest of the world, and that is always good. At the least it is
> > good news and relevant to this group that Microsoft is investing in
> > functional programming. So if they add some VM support for things like
> > tailcall, that will pressure the Java community to counter, and this
> > group will win!
>
> > -Scott
>
> > On Nov 13, 7:27 am, "Steve Eichert" <steve.eich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> While I don't expect to change your opinion of anything Microsoft being
> >> "pure evil" it is worth mentioning that F# does run on Mono.  For those of
> >> you unfamiliar with Mono it's a "cross platform, open source .NET
> >> development framework."  Perhaps that makes it less of an "EPIC FAIL"?www.mono-project.com
>
> >> ~ Steve
>
> >> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Scott Fraser <Scott.E.Fra...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> > +1 for F#, despite it being the spawn of pure evil. I just want to
> >> > know what the enemy is up to.
>
> >> > Also be nice to cover the the differences at the VM level - does the
> >> > current .NET runtime have better support than the JVM for functional
> >> > languages? Tail call instructions? etc...
>
> >> > (for examplehttp://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/tail_calls_in_the_vm)
>
> >> > In my book any functional language, BECAUSE it is on and unique to a
> >> > Microsoft managed runtime, is automatic EPIC FAIL. But that being said
> >> > Microsoft has been trying to make some interesting moves with .NET
> >> > (Silverlight's support for Smalltalk, Ruby, Python, etc...) so it's
> >> > worth checking out just to be aware.
>
> >> > -Scott
>
> >> > On Nov 10, 3:17 pm, "Toby DiPasquale" <codeslin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Kyle R. Burton <kyle.bur...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> > > > I know its a .NET language, but reading
> >> > > >http://spotless-spots.blogspot.com/2008/11/why-i-like-f.htmlhasgot
> >> > > > me interested in seeing F# in action by an experienced .NET developer.
>
> >> > > > Does anyone have enough experience to give a talk and demonstration on
> >> > > > F#?  Or know someone from outside the group we could invite to do it?
>
> >> > > > Are others in the group interested in F# enough to have it be a Philly
> >> > > > Lambda talk?
>
> >> > > I'd sure be interested in seeing an F# talk. Can't give, as I have no
> >> > > .NET experience or anything like that, but love to hear what all the
> >> > > fuss is about.
>
> >> > > --
> >> > > Toby DiPasquale
>
>