| Andrew M. on 19 Nov 2018 18:06:20 -0800 |
[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]
| Re: [PLUG] Open Source Equivalent of WordPerfect |
I agree about MS Word... painful. If I remember right the situation is better for LibreOffice. On Mon, Nov 19, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Fred Stluka wrote: > Andrew, > > Glad to hear that OpenOffice does a reasonable job with HTML. > > MS Word has that ability, but has always polluted the HTML with > all sorts of MS-specific stuff, designed, I suspect, to work better > in IE than in standards-compliant browsers like Chrome, Firefox, > Safari, etc. Even MS FrontPage, the whole purpose of which was > to edit HTML did a lot of that. Yuck! > > --Fred > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Fred Stluka -- Bristle Software, Inc. -- http://bristle.com > #DontBeATrump -- Make America Honorable Again! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > On 11/19/18 2:43 PM, Andrew M. wrote: > > IM(H)?O, LibreOffice is awesome. It can be used with markup approaches: you can create paragraph styles, then ultimately save the document as HTML, where the styles will be reflected as tags/classes. Then you clean up with Perl or Python. I have done this with ebooks and also to author a bunch of HTML content for insertion into a database. I agree with Bhaskar that the output HTML might be unexpected or clunky but think that LibreOffice's suite of features makes it worth it. > > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Fred Stluka wrote: > >> Bhaskar, > >> > >> Always nice to trip across another old VAX RUNOFF and Unix > >> roff/nroff/troff guy! > >> > >> Did you ever use IBM's Script tool? I used it at a summer internship > >> at IBM in 1982. You'd write text, marked up with SGML markup tags > >> to identify elements like chapters, sections, paragraphs, lists, tables, > >> etc. Then you'd run the Script tool to render the formatted doc. > >> It pulled rules on how to format each element from the cascading > >> standard project-wide, department-wide and corporate-wide sets > >> of Script macros and DTDs. > >> > >> So, we flunkies created content and our overlords decided how it > >> would be formatted. Technically, I think we could have written our > >> own personal Script macros and DTDs to override some/all of the > >> formatting, but few of us knew how. > >> > >> A couple years later, I was using VAX RUNOFF and sorely missing > >> the ability to specify the formatting. It was like using SGML with a > >> single hardcoded set of Script formatting macros. > >> > >> Then roff/nroff/troff. Then WYSIWYG Interleaf that stored itself as > >> markup. Then Word that was WYSIWYG-only, stored in a > >> proprietary binary format. It just kept getting worse and worse! > >> > >> About 10 years later, in 1996, I started using HTML and it was like > >> coming home. Finally, I could write docs in markup again! And > >> could even specify the formatting separately in CSS and DTDs. > >> Better yet, it was "deja vu all over again"! The HTML looked just like > >> the old familiar SGML, complete with angle brackets and all. Nice! > >> > >> See: > >> - > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language#Concrete_and_abstract_syntaxes > >> > >> Happy Thanksgiving! > >> --Fred > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Fred Stluka -- Bristle Software, Inc. -- http://bristle.com > >> #DontBeATrump -- Make America Honorable Again! > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> On 11/19/18 3:17 AM, K.S. Bhaskar wrote: > >>> As one who has used markup languages including the original markup > >>> language (runoff / nroff / troff, pre-processed by eqn / neqn, tbl, > >>> and m4) all the way through HTML and DocBook XML to reStructured Text > >>> (e.g., > >>> https://gitlab.com/YottaDB/DB/YDBDoc/blob/master/MultiLangProgGuide/MultiLangProgGuide.rst), > >>> as well as WYSIWYG tools (going back to Word-11 on RSTS to LibreOffice > >>> including Interleaf and various editions of Microsoft Word), my > >>> opinion is that everything has its place. > >>> > >>> WYSIWYG tools are unbeatable for quick, short documents like resumes > >>> and business letters. Just get it done. > >>> > >>> Markup languages are great for large documents (whose size means that > >>> they are often maintained by multiple people over long periods of > >>> time) and where you want to separate the content from the > >>> presentation. We maintain all our user documentation using git (on > >>> GitLab, mirrored to GItHub). For example, the reStructured > >>> Multi-Language Programmers Guide above is published as a web page at > >>> https://docs.yottadb.com/MultiLangProgGuide/ and we can also generate > >>> PDFs and ePub should we want to. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> – Bhaskar > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 5:04 PM Fred Stluka <fred@bristle.com > >>> <mailto:fred@bristle.com>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Casey, > >>> > >>> JP has the right idea when he says: > >>> > >>> > I switched to markup languages and never looked back. > >>> My votes are: > >>> +1 for markup languages. > >>> +1 for tools that generate markup languages. > >>> > >>> The dominant markup language these days is HTML. And as JP > >>> says, there are other less wordy markup languages that generate > >>> it: Markdown, Asciidoc, etc. > >>> > >>> Working directly in a markup language is pretty easy. You > >>> simply mix the formatting commands in among the words of > >>> the document. Commands to start a new paragraph, change > >>> text font or color, center a line, insert an image, create a list > >>> or a list item, etc. > >>> > >>> I find it better than a WYSIWYG tool like Word, LibreOffice, > >>> WordPerfect, WordStar, Interleaf, etc. Those tools respond to > >>> keystrokes, menu clicks, etc. by doing things they think I want. > >>> But I sometimes find those actions and effects to be totally > >>> unexpected. And all too often I can't figure out how to prevent > >>> an effect that is now persisting for all or a portion of my doc. > >>> > >>> My favorite such tool was Interleaf (1990 or so, on Apollo Unix > >>> workstations) because it was a WYSIWYG tool that stored each > >>> doc as an ASCII file of markup, not in a binary format. I > >>> sometimes got frustrated with things like "Why is this line of > >>> text insisting on remaining centered, when I wanted it left- > >>> aligned?!??!". But, I could just open the markup file in any > >>> ASCII text editor (vi, emacs, etc.), scan or search for the > >>> relevant text, and notice that it was annotated with markup > >>> that used the word "center". > >>> > >>> Then, I could go back to the WYSIWYG tool, search the help files > >>> for that exact markup command, and learn how to undo it. Or > >>> could make a change in the WYSIWYG tool, then diff or view the > >>> markup file to see what changed, and figure it out myself. Or > >>> could simply delete that part of the markup to fix the problem, > >>> bypassing the WYSIWYG tool entirely. > >>> > >>> Furthermore, I could write shell scripts and small programs to > >>> process the text of the markup files, making consistent changes > >>> to all sections of a file, or to multiple files, rather than having to > >>> use the WYSIWYG tool to manually edit each occurrence. > >>> > >>> These days, if you're not comfortable directly editing HTML or > >>> even Markup or Asciidoc, there are lots of WYSIWYG tools out > >>> there to provide a simple point/click UI like you see in Word, > >>> WordPerfect and the others. See: > >>> - http://google.com/search?q=WYSIWYG+HTML+editor > >>> > >>> Also, many of the tools where you'll want to enter formatted text > >>> now accept some form of markup. Examples: Wikis, GitHub, > >>> BitBucket, Jira, etc. > >>> > >>> These days, I do ALL of my documents in HTML: my resume, > >>> my consulting contracts, invoices, design docs, etc. Such docs > >>> can be stored in a single file, backed up, printed, copied to a > >>> USB drive, etc. They can also easily be attached to an email, and > >>> pretty much all email clients can render them without the > >>> recipient even having to fire up a browser to view the attachment. > >>> > >>> Here are some samples of docs created in HTML: > >>> - My resume: > >>> http://bristle.com/~fred/resume.htm > >>> <http://bristle.com/%7Efred/resume.htm> > >>> - A typical invoice to a client on my company's HTML letterhead: > >>> http://bristle.com/Temp/2016_07_HHL.htm > >>> > >>> Note that you didn't have to install Word, LibreOffice, or even a > >>> PDF viewer to view those 2 docs. Any web browser or phone can > >>> open them. I only use LibreOffice to view/edit any non-HTML > >>> docs that other people send me, never for my own docs. > >>> > >>> I'm a HUGE fan of FOSS. But, I did a search for a WYSIWYG HTML > >>> editors a few years back. I specifically wanted one that would do > >>> these 3 things: > >>> > >>> 1. Allow me to create and edit docs without ever looking at HTML > >>> when my goal was to just pretend I was in Word or LibreOffice > >>> and whip up or edit a doc using entirely a WYSIWYG interface. > >>> > >>> 2. Offer a dual mode where I could see and edit the HTML directly > >>> watching the instantaneous effects it had on the rendered doc, > >>> and could also edit the rendered doc directly via the WYSIWYG > >>> interface, watching the instantaneous effects it had on the > >>> HTML markup. > >>> > >>> 3. Allow me to open a file of hand-crafted HTML from someone > >>> else, make a minor change via the WYSIWYG interface or by > >>> directly editing the HTML markup, and save the file WITHOUT > >>> having the entire file re-indented, word-wrapped, or in any > >>> other way reformatted. When I sent the edited file back to the > >>> author and he ran a diff tool, I wanted hm to see only the > >>> changes that I intended to make, no other noise. > >>> > >>> Unfortunately, the only tool I could find to meet all 3 criteria was > >>> Dreamweaver, which is proprietary, not FOSS. So, I bought it and > >>> have used it happily ever since. Are there better FOSS options by > >>> now? > >>> > >>> --Fred > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Fred Stluka -- Bristle Software, Inc. -- http://bristle.com > >>> #DontBeATrump -- Make America Honorable Again! > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> On 11/17/18 11:37 AM, JP Vossen wrote: > >>> > On 11/17/18 10:33 AM, Casey Bralla wrote: > >>> >> Does anybody know if there is an open source equivalent to > >>> WordPerfect? > >>> >> All the word processing programs I have tried all seem to > >>> emulate MS > >>> >> Word, which I detest. I used to be able to make WP sing, but > >>> MS Word > >>> >> is a burden since it tries to outsmart me and anticipate what > >>> it thinks > >>> >> I want to do, instead of letting me do what I really want to do! > >>> >> > >>> >> I've been using LibreOffice, and it's adequate, but I was > >>> hoping for > >>> >> more. > >>> >> > >>> >> Anybody have any suggestions? > >>> > > >>> > I never liked WP, I used MultiMate, then WordStar, then various > >>> > versions of MS Word. I liked Word, and used correctly (which > >>> almost > >>> > no one does) it used to be not that bad. Unnecessary feature bloat > >>> > and the "ribbon" interface have rendered Word unusable, at least > >>> for > >>> > me. As noted, LibreOffice can be adequate, be even it is far > >>> > overcomplicated. I switched to markup languages and never > >>> looked back. > >>> > > >>> > Casey, what are your use cases? Would a wiki work? Mediawiki > >>> (powers > >>> > wikipedia) is great for all kinds of docs & notes, but it's wiki > >>> > markup is feeling very old and primitive to me these days. > >>> There are > >>> > a great many others, including some local/desktop lines like Zim. > >>> > (Zim is awesome.) > >>> > > >>> > Writing in Markdown or Asciidoc then rendering into HTML or PDF > >>> using > >>> > one of the tool chains might work. The tool chains can be a > >>> PITA to > >>> > get going, but once you have it working everything is effortless. > >>> > There are "static" wikis that work like that too, you have a Git > >>> > commit hook that renders, so a commit or push to the right place > >>> just > >>> > renders & publishes. > >>> > > >>> > Other random musings: > >>> > We wrote the first edition of the _Bash Cookbook_ in OpenOffice, > >>> and I > >>> > had to go to some contortions to handle code samples. Then O'Reilly > >>> > converted that into Word, then converted the Word into DocBook > >>> because > >>> > that's how their workstream was a the time (circa 2007). That was > >>> > very painful and introduced a lot of errors. > >>> > > >>> > We wrote the second edition in Asciidoc in Git (converted by > >>> O'Reilly > >>> > from the 1st DocBook, circa 2017). That was great. > >>> > > >>> > Every so often I look at the current markup languages and think > >>> about > >>> > Tex/LaTeX and WordStar "dot" commands and macros, and then think > >>> about > >>> > the cyclical nature of tech and IT... > >>> > > >>> > Later, > >>> > JP > >>> > -- > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > JP Vossen, CISSP | http://www.jpsdomain.org/ | > >>> http://bashcookbook.com/ > >>> > > >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ > >>> > >>> > > >>> > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > >>> > Announcements - > >>> > http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > >>> > General Discussion -- > >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > >>> > >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ > >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > >>> Announcements - > >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > >>> General Discussion -- > >>> http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ___________________________________________________________________________ > >>> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > >>> Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > >>> General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > >> ___________________________________________________________________________ > >> Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > >> Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > >> General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org > Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce > General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug ___________________________________________________________________________ Philadelphia Linux Users Group -- http://www.phillylinux.org Announcements - http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-announce General Discussion -- http://lists.phillylinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug